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Flip
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 12:20pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Tim I don't want to disect your post bit by bit. The broad point that I think you get wrong is that you keep saying "this is how real human relationships work." I think that's missing the point. A narrative is not the same as real life, and what's narratively satisfying goes beyond simple plausibility. People generally like proper setup for things and they like character development to feel earned. That's part of the writer's job in painting a portrait of a character that feels real. When character developments seem to come out of left field, it doesn't "feel" real, even if it may be "plausible in real life."
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Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 11:27am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Tim I think the issue with Raffi / Seven is very simple, people don't like to be pandered too. If their relationship rises organically out of the plot, I doubt many people would complain. But when it's just sort of tacked on, it feels cheap and unearned. People don't like that.

They also don't seem to like it when it's Rios / Jurati, either. I think people would be more inclined to give leeway to that sort of thing if the writers did a better job of characterization.
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Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 2:36pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Nick I just rewatched all of TNG last year, so I'm certainly not judging anything against some "idealized version." What I watched as a classic show that deserves it's status. If anything I think it holds up better than some people say. Even the worst episodes of TNG are not what I would call "downright terrible" TV, they still have a certain something that elevates them over most other sci-fi shows.
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Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 12:12pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Gerontius "Obviously when we say something that is our subjective opinion, but inevitably we tend to find ourselves writing as if we were saying something that is an objective fact."

That's just people expressing their opinions strongly and passionately. It's okay to have strong, passionate opinions, it's good for discourse. I think it's unreasonable to expect everyone to put a "for me," or "IMO" in front of every statement. Wouldn't it make more sense to just take that as a given?
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Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 11:14am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Right, but you have to ask yourself "what's interesting about Soji as a character"? Data was recognizably a computer, yet he admired humans and wanted to learn from them. Right from episode 1 of TNG, that's a compelling character. What actually makes Soji compelling?
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Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 11:07am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Yeah I have to agree that part of the problem is that Soji is just too human. Those "subtle" differences that chrome described are maybe just reading something into her that isn't there, because humans can be curious, not get love, have desire for family / friends, and be vulnerable. If we weren't told she was a synth, I doubt anyone would know she was anything different.

If you're gonna have synths that act basically just like humans, then the narrative needs to treat them like humans. They can't be treated the same as Data. So perhaps a narrative about a "synth ban" was a bad direction to go in the first place.
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Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 9:32pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Ryan Don't you think you're being a bit narrow minded and overly negative about the fans? I'm sure a lot of people who didn't like Discovery were lured back by Picard and the promise of something different. And of course there are Star Trek fans who will keep watching no matter how bad the shows get in the hope that the shows will improve, right?

There's also a variety of negative leaning people here, too. Including some who liked some of the episodes but were overall disappointed, and others who hated every minute of it.

If you liked the show, I don't think anyone disliking the show is stopping you from liking it.
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Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 1:07pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I like the Keiko jokes. It's humorous that someone just randomly hates Keiko and makes a point to trash her in every post!

I don't hate Keiko, but she certainly was a weak link in the original cast. Which was probably why her character wasn't that prominent.
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Flip
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:53am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I would definitely prefer to re-watch TNG season 1 than this show. But then again I actually like season 1; I like it's enthusiasm and wide eyed sense of awe, and I don't mind it's cheesiness. Also season 1 was back when TNG's soundtrack was at it's best.

The worst season of TNG to me is definitely season 7, which has a lot of weak episodes. But I would still much rather re-watch that season than season 1 of Picard. I just really don't like the Micheal Bay tone of the new shows, sorry.
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Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 12:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Just to add something real quick... maybe it's just me, but I rewatched all 7 seasons of TNG last year, and one of the constant joys of that show was just watching Stewart act. I found myself often rewinding just to hear a particular line reading of his 2 or 3 times. Anyone else done that?
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Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 12:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I noticed that some of the people who want to praise Stewart's performace in the new show feel the need to do so by claiming it was better than his performance on TNG, because that performance was never that good, or was shaky in some areas. I just can't disagree with that opinion more.

At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, quite frankly I think Stewart's acting on the old TNG is some of the best acting that's ever been on TV. That was more than just a good performance, Stuart created and unbelievably compelling, rich, and real character. Even when the scripts were bad, or when the captain was portrayed in an occasionally inconsistent manner, Stewart never failed to elevate that material and make the character seem believable and compelling.

Kirk was already an iconic character by that point, and it would have been really easy for Picard to pale in comparison, especially with his very different portrayal of a captain... and yet without taking anything away from Kirk, Picard ended up being a character who was equally or even more iconic. That says something. There's a reason why Picard is one of the most beloved characters from the entire franchise.

The new portrayal of Picard from the new show certainly is different. But will it go on to become as iconic as the old one? I find it hard to believe anyone would thinks so. And part of the problem to me IS the acting. The old Picard felt like Patrick Stewart was portraying a character that he had fully commited to. The new Picard feels like Patrick Stewart is just playing himself. He's still a good actor, but there's something missing... a fully realized and compelling character just isn't there. And it's almost if the show itself agrees with me based on how unimportant Picard seems to be within his own show.
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Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 12:55am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Tim C, But it's not like on TNG he always just gave orders and relied on other people to do things. There were plenty of times when he took action into his own hands, or was either stripped / couldn't use his powers as captain, or put in some unfamiliar situation, or a prisoner, or what have you. There's even the "Die Hard" episode in season 6, or that episode The Gambit from season 7 where he goes undercover as some kind of rogue on an alien ship.

And Picard always had to persuade people that he's right on TNG. He always had to listen, empathize, and ask for help. That's what the character was all about. Instead of being the cowboy like Kirk, he was the diplomat. None of that is new, what is new is that Picard is no longer effective at those things. And that's just kind of sad and depressing.
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Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 8:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

You know it has been a bit of a distraction from what is an interesting point: why does the show seem to have so little respect for it's title character? It's really weird how seemingly unimportant Picard is on his own show, and how he is treated as out of touch and obsolete. Meanwhile the important character on the show seem like action heroes, engaged in shallow soap opera plots. Everything happens around Picard who appears impotent, and whose speeches fall on deaf ears.

If I thought the writers were more clever, I'd be tempted to think that the TV show Picard is intended as satire. It's almost as if the message of the show is that there is no room on modern TV for shows like old TNG. There is no room for shows about diplomacy and struggling with moral dilemnas. In today's media of disposable entertainment and mindless melodrama, superheroes that spout snappy one liners, a character like Picard has no place. The times have moved past him.

Of course I don't think the writers actually intend that, but it's funny to think about. There WAS a TV show revival that did something similar: the revival of Twin Peaks was very different from the old Twin Peaks. Some people think that the message of that show was about how you can't recapture the magic of the past. Although in some ways it was unsatifying (especially the ending), it made for a really interesting TV show and it is probably my favorite of any revival show.
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Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:23pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Gerontius, It's not necessarily that he *looks* doddering or befuddled. It's that the other characters and even the show itself seems to treat him as if he's that way.
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Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 4:18pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

It is an exaggeration but I do see where he's coming from, because the way Picard is treated on this show is disheartening. Someone suggested that it's because characters need to overcome challenges, but it doesn't feel like an "arc." It feels more like the show has contempt for it's own main character.

Change is always needed and Picard couldn't or shouldn't be the exact same person as his old TNG self. But at the same time, he's a beloved character for a reason, and many people are tuning in to see that character return to TV. So in some form, even if he has changed, that old Picard needs to shine through.

But unfortunately the show as written simply doesn't seem to care enough about Picard to allow that. And to me, that's the main reason the show fails.
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Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 3:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I think we all agree that people deserve to be treated with courtesy and respect. But we don't always agree on what that means.

To me, giving the benefit of the doubt is an important way to show kindness to others. When it comes to certain words, we may carry our own baggage with those words... in extreme cases that needs to be respected, but most of the time I think it's unkind to hang that baggage over the necks of other people.
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Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@AR-558

Well sure it has a negative connotation in the same way that the words "feeble," or "frail" have a negative connotation. But it's still not the same as slur.

In context, the point of the word "doddering" by Lynos was to complain about Picard's portrayal on the show (Sorry to put words in your mouth Lynos, correct me if I'm wrong.) Since old people definitely can be portrayed that way, don't we at least need such words to be able to point out and criticize such portrayals?

It's not at all the same as using it as a simple insult, "you are a doddering fool." Which is unkind, just like any other insult.
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Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Yeah, I tend to agree that we do ourselves a disservice by demonizing words. It's much better to focus on the meaning and intent behind how people use words, and to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 1:01pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Booming Oh I don't know about that... if we ever had some kind of Soylent Green or Logan's Run scenario, that would be an equivalent! And I also think humans are irrational and short-sighted enough for such scenarios to absolutely be possible, regardless of the fact that we all age!

And I also think old people haven't always been treated nicely by society, and there probably still some things we could do better. Not that that matters... it SHOULD be irrelevant how much suffering a particular group has gone through in history, everyone should be treated with the same respect and slurs against a group of people should be equally discouraged.

I just happen to think it's a huge stretch to call "doddering" a slur. If we had a term like "oldies" I'd be just as against that as any racial slur.
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Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 12:55pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

But "doddering" isn't a derogatory label for old people. It's a description of specific behavior which tends to be associated with old people but doesn't always have to be. Since it has a specific meaning I would argue it has some possible valid uses and shouldn't just be thrown away like slurs should.

A similar word is "senile." Much more commonly used as an insult for old people than "doddering" is, and has a lot more edge as an insult. But never the less it's still a useful word that describes something, and throwing it away would be overly reactionary.

I'm not a fan of ageism either, but words like these aren't simply "slurs," context matters. Besides, being overly reactionary doesn't do old people any good.
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Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 10:46am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I'm gonna have to disagree that the term "doddering" is offensive.

I do agree that it's bothersome how in today's culture ageism is considered a permissable ism where others are not. If there's any term that's a slur against old people, "OK Boomer" would be it, that term I do find a little bit offensive since the sentiment behind it is basically "screw old people, they are irrelevant."

But "doddering" is not used commonly and I don't think I've ever heard it used as a slur. Besides, the context of how it was used was to PROTEST the way Picard's character is being treated, which is the opposite of dismissing old people.
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Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:23pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Gerontius: Well that may be the case for some, but that is your interpretation. I don't think we should be psycho-analyzing people's opinions, especially not a large group of people who will have varying nuanced opinions. Such analyzations only tend to show our own biases, anyway.

I don't think I've heard anyone say "Picard damages Star Trek!" I believe it's more just that it damages the *potential* for new Star Trek that those people will enjoy. Sure we'll always have the old Star Trek, but people always like to have new things! And it would be nice to have new Star Trek in the spirit of the old, right? Even if we may disagree about what "spirit" of Star Trek is, it's perfectly understandable that for some people these new shows may not be it. And if the existence of the current iteration of Star Trek makes getting new shows like that less likely, it's understandable to be upset about that, isnt it?
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Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Rattrap Maximize, your post was not cool.

The last thing we need on here is another speech about how a certain segment of the fanbase are bad people because they have the wrong opinions. There's definitely a lot of hate on this forum. But hate towards the show is fine; hate towards people is not.

This board is for posting opinions, right? Not only negative opinions, but all opinions. If people watch the show and don't enjoy it for whatever reason, they should say what they honestly feel, shouldn't they? Just because YOU don't agree with their opinions doesnt give you the right to tell them to shut up!

And shame on the people who made supportive posts of Rattrap. "Thank you, for finally making the hate-filled rant that I wanted to! Yes, I agree, people who have the wrong opinions should shut up!" No, his post wasn't okay, and you're supporting him is not okay either.

I've got an idea. Why don't we STOP telling people to shut up and just allow people to have their own opinions? Do you think you guys could try that for awhile? Hating a show is fine. Hating people for having the "wrong" opinions is NOT FINE!
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