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Spockless
Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 11:32am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Lasting Impressions


@Lynos

One of the Orville slogans I saw on a poster or banner somewhere went something like "in 400 years there have been lots of changes in technology. Relationships: not so much" This show isn't about the tech, or even the ray guns. this is a show about relationships. And the computer recognized the device because LaMar had already hooked it up. Anyway.. I was a bit taken by the fact that the crew already uses a lot of colloquialisms we have today (Gordon even speaks of Manwhich and American Idol in "Majority Rule that constitutes his only dialogue in that episode) yet everything in the phone seems really foreign to them (and where is the internet?) Yet because the story was so sound, none of that mattered.
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Spockless
Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 2:04am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Lasting Impressions

@Kat

i thought of that too, and I am sure they were tempted to have ti that the photo taken at the end of the episode was always on the phone.. just like Picard knowing how to play the flute. Tempting, fascinating, but I'm glad Seth resisted the urge to go there.

I loved this episode. I got so much out of it that I'm in tears thinking about how it moved me. Simple, elegant, and perfect
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Spockless
Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 10:13am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Lasting Impressions

I was under the impression that Disney doesn't have all of Fox's assets, that Fox still exists as a broadcasting network, so maybe the Orville still falls under that umbrella. All I DO know is that this show makes me happy
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Spockless
Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 10:02am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Lasting Impressions

I loved it! LOVED it. I'm glad they didn't do the Yesterday's Enterprise twist and have the picture at the end of the episode actually be on the phone
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Charles J
Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 7:30am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Lasting Impressions

The question isn’t would the data be rare, it’s would it be accessible? And how much would they have to sift through? Is it in a University archive? Does whatever version of a corporation that exist in the future control the information? Even if it is publicly available, one has to imagine that after 400 years, that’s a lot of data to go through.

I honestly thought this was one of the best episodes of the season and the entire series. The smoking plot was fun and this grounded and humanized Gordon more successfully than every other attempt so far.

This also can be read as an examination of parasocial relationships and interactions. Gordon makes a connection with someone he’s never met. He then literally starts a relationship with that person. Then he’s continuously surprised as he learns new details, even though that information was always there. Getting back with the ex. Why she started singing in public.

And as others have pointed out, the simulation, as realistic as it is, is based on what she curated and shared. Was she really the linchpin amongst her friends? How much did she really dislike her job?

Overall, this is a much more insightful look into social media than Majority Rule. More importantly, they finally treated Gordon like a real adult.

The only issue I have is at the end. Not sure why Kelly has to continually explain things that Gordon should be able to recognize on his own. If he was fresh out of the academy I would get it. But, he’s too old to be that slow.
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Charles J
Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

* Power struggle, not Power structure...

Amazing how the brain can make mental swaps like that when you're thinking on the fly. #towerofbabelinsteadofjourneytobabel
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Charles J
Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:30pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

@Gil

"As I stated previously, there was never any indication of a power struggle between Airiam and Control."

Earlier, it's clear that Airiam is starting to suspect that something is wrong with her. She just doesn't know what that is. That's why she asks Tilly to not leave her side at point. It's not implausible that by the time of the fight with Burnham, Airiam is finally aware of what's happening. Armed with that knowledge, she can at least partially fight back. Also, by that point, there's no need for pretense. Control doesn't need to fully take over Airiam. It needs to focus on breaking in more than it does controling Airiam.

Could they've shown Airiam and Control engaged in a power structure? Yes. But, that likely would have made it seem like Pike and Spock were truly being assholes as they pushed Burnham to activate the airlock.

For all we know, that could have written that in and excised it for any number of reasons. From being kinda hokey, to wanting to up the drama, to it just doesn't add enough information to make a difference to the narrative.

Just because it's not on screen doesn't mean it wasn't considered, written, or even filmed.
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Charles J
Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:07pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

@Gil

1. Tilly is not Airiam. At best, Tilly is interpreting what Airiam has told her. There's nothing in this episode, or the previous ones, that leads us to believe Tilly is an expert in cybernetics, or Airiam specifically.

2. Extending from that, characters have subjective POVs. Without supporting evidence, not everything they say should be taken as objective truth. Unless they are written to be omniscient--and omnipresent--they are just as prone to information gaps and misinterpreting the world around them, including their own experiences, as we would.

3. A challenge of television and film, compared to novels and short stories, is that we aren't privy to what's going on in a character's head. And that's informed by the writing, the actor, the director, and the editor. Collectively, they are creating a performance. If we were to ask each of them if Tilly's line is factual, or is it an emotional interpretation of a fact--or more apt, the emotional interpretation of something she's been told--we'd likely get different answers. Or, they may have all landed on the same one.

4. We see the types of memories Airiam is sorting through to archive earlier in the episode. We're never led to believe that she has to archive her personality or core functions.

5. If Control dumped Airiam's ROM, how is she even functioning? There presumably has to be a base for her to operate. It's not like Control will just happen to have all the code needed to also operate a cybernetic body. And have enough information to fool people into not noticing when Airiam isn't fully in control.

6. We also don't know if Airiam dumped her memories as an act of self preservation. It could have been Control. Allow Airiam to beam over, dump the data, replace the memories when Airiam returns. Attempting to leave no evidence, and possibly continue using Airiam are just plausbile reasons.

Could be a fail safe. For all we know, Airiam swaps out large chunks of data so she can process large data sets. Backing up her archive is an automated process when that happens.

Going back to number 3, it's not always easy to convey motivations, nor is it wise to be explicit about what's motivating every action. One, it just slows scripts down, undercuts the drama, and it leads to exposition hell more often than not. Two, it doesn't make discussions like this possible. The questions a story can raise are just as important/fun as the answers. That isn't a bug, that's a feature.
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Commander Jameson
Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:47am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Family

If this episode had been titled 'The Best of Both Worlds (Part III)' – which is effectively what it is – its reputation would arguably be much higher. As it is, it's superb and incredibly moving. And Worf's parents are adorable.
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Charles J
Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 12:41am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

They had checked the video to see if it had been doctored. They would have discovered that bit of trickery. It’s already been established that Section 31 possesses tech far beyond standard issue Star Fleet. There’s little reason to assume the people in the video are fake, only the video itself. Especially if the holograms are radiating heat. Presumably Saru was using the UV spectrum for further confirmation that they were not real.

From our perspective Nhan is dying or dead. There’s never any indication that the crew reacts as if that is what is happening. In fact, the framing purposely obscures Nhan’s display on the Discovery so we never fully see what information is being relayed back. The only text we see says “suit cam offline” and a few numbers below that. She also never says what would happen if she didn’t have her breathing apparatus, only that she needs it. Basically, she passed out and we assumed she had to be dying.
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Charles J
Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 11:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

Ariam was part cybernetic and organic. They joke about that early on. In one of her deleted memories she’s also shown getting something to eat.

They had turned the shields on after the first set of mines attacked them.

They couldn’t use the transporters because the prison made it impossible to scan for lifesigns. They could beam in, but couldn’t beam out till they had taken Control back over.
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Charles J
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 11:03am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

It’s not about realism. It’s about establishing the moral and functional rules of the universe and being consistent with them.

The Orville is all over the map when it comes to ethics and morality. Which is where good drama comes from. But, the rules should give us an idea of what kinds of consequences we should expect. And in The Orville, there aren’t many.

Keyali can be shot by the Kaylon and bounce back up after a single sickbay visit. Ed doesn’t have to actually make a decision, Orrin’s actions will resolve the conflict for him. Isaac can work his post as if the last two episodes never happened. The Union* can switch sides on a dime, and the Krill won’t call them out on it.

* Honestly, the Union trying to win over the Kaylons should be way more of a major obstacle at hand than the actions of one man. From the Krill’s perspective, whose to say the Union isn’t still looking for another culture like the Kaylons they can bring into the Union. What if the Kaylons had joined? Would it would be just for defensive purposes, or would the Union decide they had to go on the offensive? But, that’s par for the course with The Orville. Why raise the stakes based on what’s previously happened, when they can just introduce a new random element.
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Sherman Jones
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 8:55am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Future Tense

3.5 stars.

The things I might add is that this should have been a 2 episode story. The Tholians seemed to want the vessel gone since they left at the end. Not enough exploration of the extra space inside the vessel. No consequences of the Sulliban ships being destroyed. The Vulcan ship was unnecessarily added unless 2 part series. 40 minutes to cram this in.

Good story though with action.
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Cesar Gonzalez
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 8:31am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Frame of Mind

Feakes did good here, but the way he screamed "no!" Was sooooo bad. However, he carried every other scene wonderfully.

It's just hard to look good next to Patrick Stewart.

3 star episode. Liked the story and the way it kept me guessing
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Charles D
Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 12:00am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

Not sure it was necessarily a racist joke. This was after it became common knowledge on the Orville that Moclans could eat anything. Immature, yes, but not sure it was intended in-universe to be racist.
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Spockless
Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 8:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Trent
You are so right about "Birthday Cake" This kind of mentality has snuck into social media as well and represents everything I hate about our reactionary YouTube/ Facebook culture .. it seems you can sit there twiddling your thumbs doing nothing, but people out there can create a group that they hate.. slap a label on that group, so it has a name, put YOU in that group, and then make general statements why they don't like you when they are in fact making statements about the group they hate, which they actually created . And yes the word "haters" counts.. anyone who hates TLJ or Captain Marvel are called "haters" and then those people now have a group label for it that they can generalize
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Charles J
Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 2:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

I wouldn’t praise the world building too much. The Krill have been in a third of the episodes so far. Other than the first season episode the Krill, we haven’t learned much more about them. They are still mostly just the primary antagonists established in Old Wounds.

There was an opportunity in this episode to flesh them out and that didn’t happen. Even Orrin’s backstory doesn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know.

And every Krill, excluding Teleya has been interchangeable. I couldn’t say if any of the other Krill have been recurring characters. Which is only an issue because they’ve been so heavily featured as a culture. It’s not like they need to be distinct. But, if this show is meant to be aspirational, not making at least one Krill a character we can connect to undermines that goal*. It continues to just make the Krill the inscrutable other. And after 23 episodes, it gets repetitive to say maybe they’ll explore that more in the future.

*Teleya really should have been the character Gordon and Kelly went to. Or, at least tried to contact in Identity. Ed could have even suggested it and someone else could have handwaved that away as being implausible to pull off. However it shook out, some kind of callback to Teleya would have reinforced why Ed letting her go was a vital first step. And the other Krill could have acknowledged that decision played a role in their coming to the Union’s aid and/or continuing to talk afterwards. The Orville definitely replicates TNG’s episodic approach to continuity and arcs. It’s very spotty what the characters remember and act on.
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Charles J
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 11:45pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

I have to question the moral aspiration that’s here. One moment the Union is courting the Kaylons to defend against the Krill. The next, they are using the new Kaylon threat to normalize relations with the Krill.

Ending the decades long conflict between the Union and Krill is a worthy goal. Is using the threat from a third-party the most ethical and sustainable path to achieve that end?

While it’s clear Ed wants to end the bloodshed, it’s not entirely clear if that’s the Union’s primary motivation. As depicted, the Union often comes off as driven more by caution and pragmatism than any set of guiding principles. Is the Union more focused on the balance of power than achieving lasting peace? And what about the Krill? What is driving them besides the Kaylon threat? Their faith? More pragmatism?Is peace with the Kaylon even a goal the Union and Krill could even agree on? Even if it isn’t likely?

This all feels very much like two superpowers who still need to find something deeper and humanitarian that can connect them than mutual survival and existential fear.
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Spockless
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 11:13pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Erik

I think it can be both a comedy yet tell (or re-tell) old Trek stories in a way that 20's years of reflection cna offer and the humor pokes fun at Trek conventions but the drama can still be there. I think it's a great way to approach nostalgia.. whereas other franchises bring back old characters to risk ruining them (Spock, Luke skywalker, Superman, Optimus Prime) this looks and feels like 90s Trek so very much, yet the canon is clear.

Also I agree "Krill" is my favorite episode .. it really gelled
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Spockless
Fri, Mar 8, 2019, 8:45pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Yanks

I'm the opposite. It's very rare that I'll watch a Discovery episodde more than once, yet I love the Orville, from the professionalism to how it';s shot, to the way it really builds the characters. Discovery is so interested in style, that tehy will show a door at a 90 degree angle so that it looks like a hatch before straightening the cmaera.. and many of the decisions made by characters have the logic of Wile E Coyote episode.. and how the episodes are strung together .. you just have to say "if you say so" to the writers.

The orville on the otehr hand is a throwback to 90's style Trek storytelling. Not every episode is going to knock our socks off, but tehy will give us something to think about. In particular, with this episode, I was really trying to figure out how Mercer kept his cool.. as he hada lot on his plate..the specific's of Orin's plan really wasn't the point.. the point was that Mercer had to do his duty and yet it caused conflict between he and Gordon. Maybe the script could have leaned into that just a bit more, but in the end I was good with it.

The "boarding regulations" seemed a bit off in its humor I will agree. Plus the twelve hour deadline both seemed arbitrary and we had no idea how much time was passing until the last 30 minutes..


The script could have used once more polish, but I liked that it gave us a conflicted Ed, a conflicted Gordon, and a villain that seemed to be having consistent with his story. And the story had a certain logic to it. One thing I like about the Orville is that it IS predictable.. instead of "subverting our expectations" (we all all know how it can ruin something when you try that), it gives us the comfort food of Trek's history..
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Charles J
Fri, Mar 8, 2019, 1:34pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Hank

"Yes, sure, we have seen this story before, but which story haven't we seen somewhere before?...so why is everybody surprised when they cover previous Trek?"

My issue is that there is no real point to this version of the story.

Past Prologue clearly establishes several of Kira's arcs and internal conflicts. Reconciling her past as a terrorist and freedom fighter with her present as a member of the Bajoran Militia. Wrestling with her feelings about the Federation and Star Fleet. Having to diplomatically work with same people that oppressed her people.

DS9 will mine these elements for some great stories. And Kira will come full circle when she trains the Cardassians so they can fight for their own freedom, and by extension, the security of all of the Alpha quadrant.

There's none of that level of depth here. We don't really learn much new about Gordon. Nor is it clear that this was setting up a personal journey for him. There didn't even seem to be a direct connection to Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes.

There also isn't much we learn about the dynamics of the Planetary Union either. Kira's unease with the Federation's presence and authority is also a running theme the episode further establishes after the pilot. From Quark to Garak, we'll repeatedly see how ambivalent different cultures feel towards the Federation. Again, that will play out till the end of the series when the Cardassians have to rely on the Federation and the Alpha quadrant alliance for assistance.

Why replicate beat for beat a nearly three decades old episode and not do something truly unique with it? Especially when that episode is arguably just as crucial to setting up DS9 as the pilot itself?

It's also frustrating, because The Orville just did their riff on The Best of Both Worlds. And it looks like they're about to do another episode also inspired by TNG.

The story influences for TNG and DS9 were pulled from all manners of places. Many of the best, or just most memorable, episodes were not drawn from just sci-fi. Classic movies, mythology, short stories, current movies, etc. When The Orville closely redoes Star Trek, and we don't recognize any other allusions, it's weaker for it. Other than inserting overt pop culture references, it's not clear where else The Orville writers are drawing inspiration from.
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Spockless
Fri, Mar 8, 2019, 1:22am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

WTH episode was that... the teaser is all kinds of WTF
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Spockless
Thu, Mar 7, 2019, 5:14am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

Sure I could pick apart this episode's conveniences.. but it won't matter.. I love it the way it is.
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Spockless
Sun, Mar 3, 2019, 8:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Troy G if you are going to criticize an episode thanks to a spoken line, get the line correct. All mercer told the Krill captain is that they now have a common enemy. He did not say 'we can be friends now"
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Spockless
Sun, Mar 3, 2019, 1:34pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

"Ty's son".. ugh I meant Ty!!!!
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