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Ellen
Sun, Jul 7, 2019, 8:41pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: Crossroads, Part 1

@Booming:

look buster I have no fan boy obsession with Blatar. In fact, I actually dont particularly like him as a character. He is weak, he is cowardly, he is shortsighted, he doesnt think things through and is a total narcissist. But I DO have a problem with Adama/Rolsin's authoritarian tendencies and trampling over the rule of law and democratic norms as they see fit and their treatment of Baltar is no different.

Moreover, I did not compare Baltar's situation to that of "structural discrimination of black skinned Americans". The comparison was to demonstrate that regardless of your skintone, if you do not provide those who are released from jail/prison (baltar wasnt even a convicted criminal) with a way they can legally support themselves (such as via education, employment etc) then you basically relegate them permanently to a position where all they can and will do is commit crimes to get by. I stated quite clearly that Baltar becoming a religious nut job was because of Roslin/Adama's move to just kick him to the curb, not provide him with any means to support himself (shelter...) and so they drove him into the arms of those radicals. It was their fault!! They make bad choices, radicalize people and then are dumbfounded when things go bad. Same here.

I dont know if you have a reading comprehension problem of some sort but it is clear from your responses that you give bullshit answers that are rooted in ignorance, half truths and misreading what is said and then act butt-hurt when called out.

But here, let me level with you once again:

"I guess you don't believe in sacrifice, then"
--> No actually i dont. I dont believe in killing anyone for any cause nor do i believe dying for any cause. And in this context, not that it is about me, Baltar taking a bullet in his head would have done NOTHING to change the situation of the people on Caprica 2. Maybe in your mind being a corpse is some romantic glory to seek out and welcome, to most people it isnt. Since, as Roslin admitted in her damn journal, Baltar's government was a puppet one, they would have just installed another one to rubber stamp their execution orders so Baltar dying wasnt going to accomplish a damn thing.
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"That is the reality. I was just pointing out that it isn't because BSG is not a documentary. "

--> good god you really do have a reading comprehension problem. When I said "this is reality" I meant it in the context of the realities at hand FOR THE PEOPLE ON CAPIRCA 2. I didnt mean this was reality as in a documentary. Urgh.
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" I only wrote that I can understand that Adama wants to see him dead."

--> ummm...no, that is not what you said. I mean it appears as though you cant even understand the crap you write. You listed a bunch of things Baltar did out of context and then said "I can see why Adama wants him dead" and I corrected you on all counts. In other words, your assertion that you can understand why Adama wants Baltar dead was based on fiction and misinformation, so your conclusion was wrong, which is what I corrected you on.
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"Under different circumstances more trials probably would have happened but people are rare so just get the main perp and convict him and be done with it."

--> Yeah i can see how an authoritarian aficionado like yourself would think running kangaroo courts was justice but it is not. The point of Lee's speech, and which you keep missing, is that if we can forgive genocide, vigilantism, murder and all sorts of horrid things, to all of a sudden hold Baltar to the highest standards is hypocritical. And here's another thought: not having enough personnel, doesnt mean you run speedy trial and take suspects you dont like out back and shoot.

I can see why you support Roslin and Adama, you have about as much respect for the rule of law and democratic norms as those two. Enough said...
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"I guess you don't understand the difference between direct democracy and representative democracy. "

--> lol. This wasnt a Representative democracy and even if it was, so the fuck what? The point is, and that is established fact, Baltar ran on colonizing the planet and the public voted for him (directly or via quorum) because THEY WANTED TO SETTLE ON THE PLANET. I mean that was only the whole point of him winning!! Duh. So to then blame him for settling on Capirca 2 and conveniently leaving out the stupid voters is once again hypocritical and taking things out of context to support your bias.

You are truly grasping at straws here with your so-called reasoning, if one can call any of this that. Stop before you keep embarrassing yourself man.
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"Come on. Are you serious?! Read a book for gods sake! After WW2 (and I could certainly find more examples) collaborators were executed in France, Belgium Greece, Norway to name a few."

--> we are not talking about collaborators, you said LEADERS and i corrected you.
Again with you changing the goal post and misrepresenting your own words. wow. Plus, we JUST established Roslin issued a blanket pardon for collaborators. So why the hell do they get off the hook but not Baltar? Get outta here....
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"Roslin was lucky that the Cylons actually found them, if not then she would have looked pretty stupid."

--> really? well then she should be giving Baltar a medal, not wanna execute him...
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"Sorry. They disagree."

--> again not the point. You made it sound like the French executing collaborators was gospel and i pointed out they were wrong executing people who wanted to protect themselves. Has nothing to do with them agreeing with me. What a childish, stupid response.
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"Again, it also shows a pattern of collaboration with the Cylons LONG BEFORE THE OCCUPATION."

--> no it does not. It just exposes a self adsorbed, useful idiot who was easily manipulated. I seriously doubt that the destruction of humanity was ever his goal.
Plus I can understand why he helped Gina escape after what they had done to her on the Prometheus.
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"Sure, he only has visual and auditory hallucinations but apart from that he is fine."

--> oh you mean like your kingpin Roslin? lol
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"Through the entire show he is exhibiting a pattern of collaboration with the Cylons. Without him Humans would still sip tea in the 12 colonies. "

--> Man you really havent understood this show. Did you at all pay attention to the part where Adama shot down a cylon craft or something near their territory and thought this may have provoked the war? Furthermore, intent matters. Even in a court of law. I know your hatred for Baltar is big but to seriously think he intended to erase humanity is just not true. Go rewatch the show dude.


Finally, yes you really showed me by comparing me to a cylon....lol

Now run along....
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Ellen
Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 8:50pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: Crossroads, Part 1

"Of course he had a choice"

--> no he did not! he really did not. We all watched the scene. The cylon wasnt bluffing. he would have shot killed him without batting an eye (I mean they did it with billions of humans already) and then yeah, dragged another human in there to sign. And if he had refused, then on and on. Cylons have no qualms killing humans. In fact, when they arrived they said surrender and we will nuke you.

Dying is not an option. First of all he did say no and refused, he hesitated, but the Cylon was aggressive and he would have killed him. To say he had a choice when the choice meant taking a bullet in your head, is preposterous.
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"This is a TV show but alright"

--> Umm..yeah it is. But it doesnt mean it needs to be stupid either. The great thing about BSG is that it is trying to realistically depict human action and interaction. To excuse bad plot points by pointing out "this is a TV" is also pretty preposterous. Good grief.

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"Are we talking about the logic you imagine I have? Because I never said that they should have fought to the death."

--> Dont change the goal post. You said Adama and Roslin have every right to want to see him dead since he collaborated etc and I am pointing out if that is the logic then you need to be consistent and also apply it to Adama and demand that he be executed for having left the colonists when the Cylons arrived. But you are not. You are like those people Lee was talking about, willing to forgive all and every transgression EXCEPT for when it comes to Baltar.
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"Because he knew that it was wrong and how did Baltar govern before the Cylons arrived? Did he really commit to doing good for the people he lead to this god-forsaken rock? No, he was having drug fueled parties with prostitutes? while not giving a shit at all. That only highlights what a despicable person he is. Not only the Cylon occupation, his whole time in office was a disaster of his own making. Leaders got shot for far less. "

--> yes he is a lousy leader. But 1) that is what the people voted for!!! I mean when you give people the choice to vote for their leaders you have to make room for them voting for the wrong person. Sure Baltar was a shitty leader but again the people voted for him, so they made their bed and 2) IT DOESNT MEAN HE DESERVES TO DIE/BE EXECUTED! Dont you understand that? No one is saying he was a good leader, the point he didnt deserve to be executed. Plus, blame the stupid masses for voting him in. That's on THEM!

And no leaders dont get executed for less. Not in democracies, only in autocratic shitholes.
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"Why would she stay on board of the Galactica. She is no state official, she isn't military. Why should she have stayed on the Battlestar? She is a teacher. Should she teach algebra to Adama? Counting wall panels?? Good people go where they are needed."

--> Why would she stay? Gee, I dont know, maybe cause she KNEW, as you claim, that the Cylons were coming and she didnt wanna die? There is plenty she could have done on the ship. I doubt Adama would have ordered her away. But she didnt stay, which begs the question of whether her objection to go based on fear that cylons may attack was ever legit to begin with.
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" I wasn't talking about German Nazis, I was talking about french collaborators. The French killed more than 10000 collaborators"

--> Well then the French were wrong. Plain and simple. You cannot blame anyone for not wanting to die and agreeing to collaborate with someone who holds a gun to their heads or threatens their family.
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"He gave away the codes that left humanity defenseless for money which made the genocide possible. But you are right. His intent wasn't to kill 99,99% of humanity. What a hero!"

--> I didnt say he was a hero. I said it doesnt make him a genocidal monster who had intent. That doesnt mean I think he is a hero. You made it out like he was the architect behind the attacks and did so with intent and glee when in reality he was a useful idiot used by the sex pot cylon. That makes him a tool who is easily manipulated but not a monster. Or hero.
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"Oh, I see. The guy who played a major role in the annihilation of humanity thought that Roslin was ungrateful and therefor knowingly gave a nuclear warhead to a Cylon who *gasp* didn't use it for good?!"

--> Umm...yeah. Baltar is impulsive, doesnt think things through and makes bad decisions. That doest make his a genocidal murderer who willingly participated in the end of humanity. It sure hell doesnt mean he deserves to be executed.
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"Well, he is crazy and before the war he was certainly a narcissist."

-->> I dont think he is crazy. But he is certainly a narcissist. Which is not the same as the murdery sociopath you make him out to be
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"- responsible for the death of 99,99 % of humanity
- responsible for the destruction of several ships and thousands of people.
- main collaborator with the Cylons during the occupation which killed another 15% of what was left humanity."

--> wrong on all accounts based on the above. Taking stuff out of context is hot a fair way to assess and analyze a situation. Again, he was an unwitting participant to the genocide when he gave away those codes. He didnt think. Intent and context matter, not to you, but to anyone who wants to fairly asses a situation.

And again, he wasnt collaborating with the cylons. HE HAD NO CHOICE!!!

The reason humans would go extinct is not because of Baltar, but because of Adama and Roslin whose solution to every crime is execution. That and their consistently bad decisions that lead to deaths as well as in the end themselves collaborating with the genocidal murderers (oh the fucking irony) who annihilated their race while executing Gaeta and Zarek. The cylons would be better off staying away and just letting Adama and Roslin rule everyone into extinction.
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Ellen
Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 7:59pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S4: Escape Velocity

The whole reason Baltar went down that route and embraced the religious nut-jobbery is, again, because of Adama and Roslin!! They always set shit up a certain way and then act all dumbfounded and surprised when it hits the fan.

When Baltar got acquitted, instead of giving him a home and something to do (he is still a brilliant scientist. Couldnt they have used him in sickbay for something?? They do have a shortage of people like him) they just threw him out on the street, so to speak, vulnerable and desperate and eventually drove him in the arms of those religious fanatics. The man had nowhere to go, he was being attacked and his life in jeopardy. I dont blame him for seeking shelter with those religious crazies. I dont think any of us would have done it differently if we were in his place.

The man was, literally, begging Lee and his attorney to help him, scared of what he was supposed to do, where to go etc. And what did they do, they just scoffed at him and told him to go his merry way. "Not our problem" Until it did become their problem.

That was such a strategically bad move by Roslin. Especially in a small society as they now have with like what ~32,000 people left, you cant just have people wander around ships fending for themselves. You need to give everyone something to do, provide a structure. This isnt just a bunch of random ships escaping Cylons, they are a community too. But not doing any of that creates the very milieu of black markets and lawlessness and falling prey into the hands of unsavory elements that feed on that desperation, which in turn creates unrest and a class of people who work outside of society, that you DONT want to create.

One of your responsibilities as leader is governing even people you dont personally like, including criminals.

But no, in her supposed wisdom as the president of the colonies, she just kicked him to the curb hoping he will just magically go away.

Well he didnt go away.

See if the shitshow Roslin and co are running was a truly Democratic society where those who govern it actually give a flying damn about the rule of law etc then Baltar's acquittal would have meant he is no longer a pariah and by law cannot be shunned out of or barred from finding shelter, food and also a "job." But it appears as though the verdict was just to not execute him because for all intent and purposes he was still treated like a convicted criminal after his acquittal.

This is, incidentally, also what is by and large happening to formerly incarcerated people in the US where discriminatory laws have kept millions locked in a cycle of poverty and desperation where grants for prisoners seeking higher education to prepare for their release were eliminated, laws denying financial aid to students with drug convictions were enacted including a lifetime ban on welfare and food stamps for anyone convicted of a felony drug offense. Public-housing agencies are allowed to deny shelter to anyone with any sort of criminal history (even an arrest without conviction!), not to mention the “one strike and you’re out” initiative, which meant that families could be evicted from public housing because one member (or a guest) had committed even a minor offense.

People released from prison with no money, no job, and nowhere to go can no longer return home to their loved ones living in federally assisted housing without placing the entire family at risk of eviction.

In other words, legalized discrimination in employment, housing, access to education, and basic public benefits relegate millions to a permanent second-class status basically driving people back into committing crimes as the only way they could survive since all legal doors to earn a living or improve their situation was taken away from them. Worse, it radicalized a lot of people.

This is exactly what Roslin and Adama did when they just kicked Baltar to the curb.

So for Roslin to say she wont indulge him or has no patience for him really takes the cake. Just shut up, bitch. He is where he is because of YOU. One of the reasons I dislike her is because she _constantly_ creates a bad situation because of her lousy, ineffective governance strategy and bad decisions and then is upset when the outcome turns out to be precisely what everyone knew was gonna be when she went down that route.

Wash , rinse repeat.

I am tired of seeing these two make bad decisions and then blame everyone else for them.

By the way, I loved, loved loved Tyrol's speech to Adama at the bar. Admitting he had settled for her, going off on Cally's vacant eyes, her cabbage smell breath and refusing to turn her into an angel. Right on Tyrol! I have always loathed Cally and found Adama's praise of her phony. I really appreciated that Tyrol called him out on his phony ass remark about what a good person she was by reminding him of when he had threatened to take her out back and shoot her if he didnt comply during the strike. Seeing Tyrol finally stick it to this hypocritical geezer and say it like it is, was great.

As usual Adama is an asshole in denial. He listens but he doesnt HEAR Tyrol, or anyone for that matter. And true to form when he's got nothing to say after being rightly confronted and called out, he pulls rank on him punishing him. What a jerk.
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Ellen
Thu, Jul 4, 2019, 7:52pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S4: The Ties That Bind

So here's the thing with Roslin: if she wants to be a tyrant, then fucking BE A TYRANT. Declare martial law, have your boyfriend put boots on the ground, dissolve the quorum, take dissidents out back to shoot and go full on dictator. I mean she even said "I would love to be able to control the press." Ok, fine. Fair enough. You hate Democracy, you find having to explain yourself to the people you are in charge of governing is a waste of your time, you wanna be able to have secret tribunals and a shadow government operating outside the normal process, you want to keep stuff from your people, then MAKE IT SO.

The fact that she is operating under the cloak of Democracy and democratic norms pretending to give a shit about the quorum and all that makes it all worse and keeps exposing her as the autocrat she really is. Now I dont think she is power-hungry. I think she really thinks times require a different form of governance - not a democratic one for sure. And if that is the case, then she needs to go with that. If she doesnt, then it's cause she knows she cant get away with it, which means that she needs to then stop being an autocrat and embrace this whole democracy and transparency business instead of repeatedly getting caught with her hands in the cookie jar and then feigning outrage at whoever exposes her.
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Ellen
Thu, Jul 4, 2019, 7:18pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S4: Six of One

Well I dont know, If this all isnt evidence that Kara is mentally ill, I dont know what is.

The scenes with her screaming and foaming at the mouth were irritating. I was hoping Roslin hadnt missed when she shot her. I find the misgivings people have about her completely rational. She came back from the dead and short of a plausible explanation as to why she is back, to expect that these people dont question her resurrection doesnt make sense.

Adama is an idiot for wasting man power and resource to give her a ship to act out her mental illness. If she really is doing all this casue of some divine providence then the writers should have portrayed as a bit more sane and less mentally unstable and frakked out of her mind.
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Ellen
Thu, Jul 4, 2019, 2:50pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: Crossroads, Part 1

@Booming:

being a willing participant and accomplice to a genocidal regime is very different from a having a brutal, military force that just annihilated billions of your people occupy your colony and, literally, put a gun to your head and say "sign this/surrender or else". You saw the scene. Baltar had NO CHOICE but to sign the execution orders. I doubt Roslin would have done anything different unless she wanted to eat the bullet.

And when the Cylons arrived, the colonists were also outgunned and outnumbered. Going down with guns blazing and getting everyone killed may be your idea of successful resistance or heroic, but it is not. Gaius saved these people. Had he refused, the cylons would have just ordered rounds of executions and kept doing it until they comply. That is the reality.

Going by your logic, Adama is just as culpable because instead of staying and fighting as you say, he took off leaving those people to die.

Plus, since we are talking about doing bad things: what about all those people who engaged in vigilante justice and flushed people out of airlocks? What about Tigh manipulating one of his people to wear a suicide west and get over 30 others killed? he did what he had to do, and so did Gaius. And actually Gaius got no one killed, unlike Tigh and the vigilante team.

It is like Lee said, people have committed all sorts of crimes and been forgiven. Roslin herself issued a blanket pardon for all collaborators. But somehow that doesnt seem to apply to Baltar. Why? Cause these people are cowards looking for a scapegoat instead of taking responsibility for their own part in this.

Maybe Baltar's idea of settling on Caprica 2 was ill conceived. But then again, the PEOPLE voted for him based on that. No one made them. So why not blame them for their shortsightedness and idiocy? Why just dump it all on Baltar?

And I mean really, I did not see Roslin refusing to leave the ship due to legitimate concerns that cylons would attack. On the contrary, she was making long-term plans like building a cabin etc. Doesnt sound like someone who is scared.

The people you reference who say I was only following orders, i..e Nazis, was very different than being under a military occupation by a hostile power. And even then I want to know who, especially among the lower rungs in nazi germany, could have just "resisted" without being taken out back and shot. Most people cant even stand up to their abusive bosses yet here you are all cavalier about resistance against a brutal military force and think it was oh so easy for Gaius to just say no.

Finally, Baltar unwittingly gave the defense codes to Caprica 6. He was pussy whipped and self absorbed and likely didnt think much of it. But there is no evidence of intent and that matters. He was a useful idiot to the cylons. In fact, it seems like Baltar just makes bad choices and doesnt think things through, like when he gave Gina the warhead because he was Irritated by Roslin's perceived ungratefulness. He didnt give it to her hoping she would use it on the crew. He isnt a cruel man or a sociopath. His actions have to be understood within a context. In fact, he likely wouldnt even have run for president if Roslin hadnt been such an asshole demanding he resign. Baltar has an ego, true, but that doesnt make him the evil monster who deserved to die. Fuck that dictator Adama for even saying that. Lee's speech at the end summarized it all nicely.
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Ellen
Wed, Jul 3, 2019, 9:09pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: Crossroads, Part 1

WTF are these people talking about "Baltar didnt have the guts to stand up to the cylons?" How? With what means? With his secret Jedi mind shit? They were completely surrounded, outnumbered and outgunned. They held a gun to his head. He didnt have a choice. How do they think he could have stood up to him?

Also, are they going after him for cowardice or intent? Cause there is a difference. It cant be both. If Gaius intended to collaborate with the enemy then that makes it a whole different thing. But he couldnt also have been a coward who failed to stand up to them. Failure to stand up means he had no intent. But they are arguing intent. Legally speaking that line of reasoning doesnt make sense. You cant condemn a man for not having the "guts" to stand up against a formidable, brutal enemy and as a the commander in chief, which Gaius was, make a tactical decision that resulted in saving more lives than extinguishing them.

When Roslin testifies that Baltar ordered the execution, why didnt Baltar tell his attorney that he was held at gun point, describe the exact scenario, how hes was sobbing and refusing and how the cylon put a gun to his head and said he'll pull the trigger? Why didnt they subpoena Roslin's journals where she admits that Baltar's government is a puppet one. I really dont get why the defense did not make that case and was instead grappling to find their way out.

Adama admitting that he doesnt think Baltar should even have a trial showed his true colors. These people are hurt and angry and also feeling guilty for having voted for Baltar and pushing to go on this planet in the first place, and instead of taking responsibility and looking at Baltar'a actions from within that context, they are just wanting to throw him under the bus to pay the price they are not. If you ask me, the only cowards in this scenario are the people on that tribunal and everyone who blames Baltar.

I have to point out the irony of Dualla leaving Lee, not because he cheated on her, not because he disrespected her or doesnt love her. No. Because he did his job and asked a perfectly legitimate question of a hostile witness. What an idiot.
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Ellen
Wed, Jul 3, 2019, 7:58pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: The Son Also Rises

Random thoughts:

- This episode is gold. It is one my favorites. And cracks me up everytime. From the way Baltar reaches into his burlap prison pajamas to get a pen to the whole crew chasing a cat around the hangar only to not catch it because...well, it is a cat, this was lols all the way for me.

-Im tired of the whole sex kitten thing they got going on with Caprica 6. I get why she was scantily clad in Gaius' fantasies/hallucinations but in real life? As someone observed in the comments above, why is she allowed to waltz around in the brig in a slinky jumpsuit? She's been there at least a few weeks, has she been wearing and stinking up the same sexy jumpsuit? I get that Tricia Helfer has been first and foremost cast to sex up the routine and up ratings, but come on, this is directly cutting into the believeability of it all. Just have her wear an orange jumpsuit like everyone else stuck in prison.

-Adama insisting on listening in on the rog while also serving on the jury and then telling Lee "too bad, this is how I am gonna do it" when he points out the unethical aspect of this is typical of this ass of a tyrant and makes the next item gleam with irony:

-Adama: "I am capable of listening to the evidence and make an ethical decision" --> LOL. FUCK YOU!

- One of the smartest things anyone has ever uttered on the show is Cally's comments in the room after they discovered the bomb: the cylons dont need to do anything to us, we will finish ourselves off.

Indeed. In fact, if I was a cylon i'd just leave these fools alone and let them kill each other. And you know it will happen sooner or later with the dynamic autocratic duo Adama/Roslin in charge. In just a few years time they will have reduced their numbers so much that all the cylons have to do is come in and pick up the rest. if there is one thing I am getting out of this show then it is that the biggest threat to humanity is humanity.
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Ellen
Wed, Jul 3, 2019, 4:29pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: A Day in the Life

I wish Cally had suffocated. But then we wouldnt have the pleasure watching her ass be sucked out of the airlock in Season 4. lol

Yes, I kinda really despise her character.
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Ellen
Wed, Jul 3, 2019, 4:42am (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: Taking a Break from All Your Worries

It was hard watching the torture scenes with Baltar. Given that these people have all done their share of terrible, unconscionable and right out criminal things, to be somehow singling out Baltar and torturing and accusing him is just hypocritical. Yet, it is in en par with Adama's and Roslin's established complete lack for the rule of law and Democratic norms when the shoe fits. Sure, Blatar is a lazy, self indulgent hedonist and was a terrible leader. But he could not have stopped the cylons on Capirca 2 any more than Roslin if she was in his place. Roslin wasnt even opposed to settling on Caprica 2 cause she thought cylons would attack, it was mostly her "gut feeling" telling her something bad was gonna happen. Just like something bad could have happened if they had stayed on the ship. I mean why did she move down if she thought it wasnt safe. Why did she wanna build a cabin? Point being: no one had a crystal ball but these people act like Baltar knew and he still forced them. By that logic, they may consider rounding up all the people who voted for him too.

Anyway, it became clear that these people are looking for a scapegoat and they found it conveniently in Baltar instead of taking some goddamn responsibility for their own doings here.

As to Lee: I really found his behavior toward Dualla appalling and unbecoming of his established character traits. Cheating on your wife cause you love someone else is one thing. But cheating on them, getting caught and then gaslighting and lying to them that they are imagining all this and that you love them actually, which we know is not true, is a whole different level of assholishness. That's where the betrayal comes in. I found Dualla's first dialogue with Lee very powerful and effective: she told him she was aware of his feelings for Kara since before she married him and called it quits. I loved how she maintained her dignity and gracefully bowed out from this dysfunctional marriage. It really elevated her character for me since there was something very unbecoming about someone who looks the other way when her husband is cheating on them.

But all that was nullfied in the later scene where Lee is buttering her up with his insincere apology and Dualla just gobbles up the bullshit Lee feeds her about loving her etc. It was just pathetic and undid everything she had achieved in the previous scene, rendering her yet another naive, love sick sap who makes bad decisions and humiliates herself for a man who doesnt give a shit about her. And Lee just sank to new depth by lying to her that he was in love with her and married her cause of that. None of which is true as evidenced by the fact that he was still fawning over Kara at the very moment he was assuring Dualla that he loved her. Wow. And both she and Anders buy it. What a bunch of idiots.

Well you know Dee, "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Well I guess girlfriend is about to find out just how far her shame will go...
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Ellen
Tue, Jul 2, 2019, 4:10pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: Unfinished Business

Has anyone ever considered the fact that Kara is mentally ill? Likely brought on by her childhood and other crap that happens to people rendering them mentally ill but to me this is what seems to be going on with her, especially her erratic behavior. I mean, she ditched Lee, married Anders and yet here she is, in the ring, engaging in what I can only surmise to be foreplay. We all know that if there wasnt an audience, these two would jump each other. She is playing with his feelings and the worst part is he plays along, all to the detriment of poor Dualla.

Anyway, her erratic behavior and not being able to decide on one man is part of her ongoing mental anguish. Remember the episode she brought Anders back and how they were in the crew quarters and she kept doing shots and these exaggerated, obnoxious "HAHAHAHAAHA"s and "BOHAHAHAHHAHA"s? That was all just Kara using laughter to mask her inner dysfunction and turmoil and how out of the step with the world she is. I think she was having a manic episode then. You know the harder she laughs, the sadder she is.

It is almost like she is bipolar and going back and forth between depressive and manic episodes. That would explain the extremes between which she is going back and forth. Scream out Lee's name, but screw Anders. F-ck Lee and then marry Anders the next day. Then want Lee back and so f-ck Anders the next day...

I think you have to evaluate her behavior and fickleness from within that context of her mental illness cause when you are that impaired your judgment is too. You dont know what you want and if what you even want is based on the most sound judgment. In her case, she was first all hung up on Anders, so she acted all self destructive and hysterical and manic and then when she got him he quickly became old news and she wanted Lee instead. Then she had Lee and so it wasnt good enough anymore, so she went back to Anders. Now she has Anders again, but wants to go back to Lee. If she had gotten together with Lee, in a short time she'll likely want Anders back and on and on.

Point being: she seems to just constantly want what she cant which, in turn, appears to be a function of her mental illness.

As a side: Kara's hair extensions are really badly done, you can totally tell when her real hair ends and her fake one begins.

Also, Adama going back to boxing a year after someone empties two rounds his abdomen. I dont buy that....

A final note: these people clearly seem to have all been behind this whole moving to Capirca 2 thing and were happy. That they then end up solely blaming Gaius for what happened next is preposterous. They wanted to be there, that is why they voted for the guy. No one made them, not even Roslin who, also, seems to have had plans to settle there with her cabin by the lake.
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Ellen
Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:01pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S2: The Captain's Hand

I take pleasure in the fact that ultimately it was Roslin's narrow-minded, cowardly decision to go after the low hanging fruit, after the easy targets and criminalize abortion that cost her the election. Of course it wasnt the only thing, Roslin is overall just an asshole with mostly bad ideas who only selectively obeys the laws and as she sees fit (see her trying to rig the election) and people eventually saw that. But this very act of her was undoubtedly a nail in the coffin.

The part where Baltar invoked the cylons and how their lack of freedom is what makes them mere machines, puppets, and that he was not willing to let humanity go down that route. That was brilliant. He told people exactly what they needed to hear while Roslin was standing there with egg all over her face exposed as the autocrat that she and her boyfriend Adama really are at heart.

Well played Gaias.
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Ellen
Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 5:14pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S2: Epiphanies

God I hate Tigh so much. He is not XO material at all. No class, no etiquette. Nothing. He is a filthy wanna-be tyrant who does not even remotely believe in the principles of Democracy. I mean in a scene in this episode, the guy comes in peace wanting to prevent further bloodshed and to just talk, which is a reasonable proposal, and this son of a bitch greets him with "visitor my ass. We shoot people like you for treason."

Fuck you, Tigh!

The only one who belongs shot on this show is him. Of all the people they have (and will end up) killing, to think they kept this jackass around is unbelievable. He is a mean, petty, abusive drunkard who totally deserves Ellen and what she did to him. It only speaks of Adama's bad judgment as a leader and deeply flawed character to be best friends with this guy and keep him in charge as his second in command. Then again I dont like Adama's leadership style either. He, too, is a dictator wann-be. Like when he just removed Roslin from office when he didnt like what she had to say. But in this episode he pulls rank on Baltar saying "well as the president of the colonies it is her right to make this decision". Really? Why? Cause it is something he personally agrees with.

Thing is, in a Democracy you respect the rule of law and dont just follow the ones that personally agree with you while spitting on and ignoring those which dont. Yet that is something Adama does again and again and again on this ship. Like during the trial of Baltar where he just wants to dissolve the court or tribunal cause they ask him and his girlfriend some tough questions he'd rather not answer.

Watching this show the question in the back of my mind remains: why the hell does anyone think humanity deserves saving ?
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Ellen
Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 7:51pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S1: You Can't Go Home Again

Another instance of that jackass Adama changing the goal post when the shoe fits. Just two episodes ago he didnt bat an eye giving the order to destroy that carrier that had 1300 people on it. Didnt even wanna risk it but here he is risking everything to rescue one pilot, jeopardizing limited resources and the fleet. What an asshole.
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Ellen
Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 12:33am (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S4: A Disquiet Follows My Soul

I seriously cant stand Adama. He is such a hypocrite. He hates Zarek for his violent past as a political activist and considers him a low life terrorist whom he clearly cant forgive or forget but he is wiling to forget and forgive the very cylons (Capirca 6 etc ) who were the architects of humanities genocide. Entities that murdered billions of humans of which now only a meafer 35k are left. In fat, Adama takes that hypocrisy so far that he ends up EXECUTING his own people later on for daring to challenge that.

In this episode, I find Adama's attitude toward the whole situation an overreaction. He is just dictating what he wants instead of sitting down and addressing the very legitimate concerns the press and the Quorum have. In fact, he evades and avoids them, acting like having to answer to members of a legitimately elected government as well as the public, whom he is supposedly serving, was a nuisance and inconvenience he'd rather not deal with it if he doesnt feel like it. He acts exactly like someone who thinks he doesnt owe people crap.

That is terrible leadership and I dont at all blame Gaeta and Zarek for starting a mutiny.

I mean in situations like this you cant just shove your will down peoples' throats. Most of them are still struggling from the fall out of having lost their homes, loved ones and ...LIVES...and everything they knew because of a genocidal race that is hunting them through the galaxy. Heck they had to endure it twice: once at home and once on Caprica Two.

Adama et al should have approached this differently. You never wanna radicalize people and forcing them to swallow every shit sandwich you shove down their throats is not a sustainable way to run things or gain the sympathy of the populace whose support you need unless you are a dictator who doesnt give a shit either way since you dont need their support to reign.

Anyway, the whole situation was mishandled and it is all Adama's fault. He is thick headed, stubborn, rigid; a military dictator who doesnt like to be called such because the truth sucks I guess. Good grief. This fucking guy. The way he just disregards and tramples over the rule of law when it suits him; the way he condescends when talking to the Quorum like he didnt owe them shit. His disdain for a free press and Democratic institutions in general, and his disrespect toward anything that challenges his and Roslin's authority, are just too much. Not to mention his personal disdain and over-the-top contempt for Zarek.

In fact, why does Adama hate Zarek so much? This is now the second time he just flat out refuses to accept Zarek as the President when the situation, legally, called for him to be just that. That attitude in and of itself is proof for Adama's disdain for Democracy and the rule of law. He is basically making it clear that whatever (puppet) government is in charge, is so with his permission. When the shoe fits, he is more than willing to threaten to swiftly pull his military support until the person HE is ok with takes over.

Adama doesnt want a democratic government, he wants a military dictatorship with a president of his choosing. Sure, there is an election, but it has to be someone he can stomach.

Again, these are not traits of a"'good guy" so if the writers were going for that, it backfired cause Adama is the worst.
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Ellen
Tue, Jul 24, 2018, 7:31pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S4: The Ties That Bind

I really hated Cally. Tyrol's description of her as having vacant eyes and smelling like boiled cabbage is apt and made me laugh out loud. She just appears quiet and innocent but behind that mousy exterior is a mean, annoying stinkin' little rodent. I was actually glad to see her go. I hated how she killed Boomer and then got high fives. Watching her be flushed out that airlock was the highlight of this episode.
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Ellen
Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 10:04pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S4: Razor

Cain is just a fucking psycho in a uniform. A sociopath actually. She is unhinged and unstable, willing to stab anyone in the back - or throw out of an airlock, or shoot in the head - when it suits her. Adama trying to excuse her despicable, cruel actions really pissed me off and made me dislike him even more. You dont need other people to hold you in check to not be a cruel nightmare.

Anyway, I know the writers want to make Cain out to be this complex character who had to "make hard choices" in tough times, but she is just a power-tripping sociopath who was looking for a reason to inflict pain and hurt people and she had no redeeming qualities. And that, in a nut shell, is what makes her so unappealing and not complex at all. She is just a bully.

If the goal was to make us sympathize with the "villain" it backfried. I mean she was an asshole even before the Cylon attack, her sociopathy barely kept in check by the thin veneer of civilization. But once that veneer was pulled off, she just went ballistic for no good reason really. I mean when she ordered the raid on the civilian ships or executed her own CO, she didnt even do it to save humanity, she did it so she can live another day and exact her pointless bullshit vengeance. "We need to save humanity so let's kill humanity" is not a strategy.

I mean she is an Admiral and ostensibly in charge of the last fleet of humanity and her idea of navigating this mess is by engaging in a private little war with the cylons, seriously thinking one ship with a few thousand people can somehow put an effective end to the entire Cylon race or even undermine their efforts. She really seems to think this is what they should be doing: roam the galaxy and just kill cylons and execute anyone who disagrees. Thee is no long term strategy. It is all just "give me all the ammo so I can shoot these motheruckers into oblivion."

As much as I despise Adama and Roslin, at least they did all the crap they did for a reason; a viable, realistic end game: finding Earth. Cain is just doing all this for self aggrandizement, which she is unconvincing trying to pass up as sacrifice and hard choices in difficult times blah blah...

I mean what kind of a person would order someone to rape and torture the person they once loved? Even if that person had betrayed them. Still. Who does that?

A sociopath. That's who.

At least Shaw felt bad for what she had done and I really believe she stayed behind to atone for her sin. Cain never felt any remorse. Heck, she gave Shaw a promotion!!! For what? For emptying a bullet in the head of an unarmed civilian? That is not someone who feels bad for having had to make unconscionable choices.

The difference between a sociopath and normal person is that a sociopath doesnt feel bad for that they did. They have no remorse. Just like Cain: she tried to justify her actions TO OTHERS but she never felt bad personally for what she had done, be it to her own XO or the civilians. Unlike Shaw, who couldnt live with herself anymore and knew the only way out of having to live with herself and what she had done was to end it.

In the end, It is ironic that it is actually the human being in this scenario (Cain) who acts inhuman. Or is she acting human after all? Once again I am left wondering why humanity deserves saving...
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Ellen
Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 3:16pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: Dirty Hands

I think season 3 is when I started hating Adama and Roslin so much. Just everything they do, they are awful. I mean from what they did to the workers here to the way they treated Baltar and the kangaroo court they ran, to executing Gaeta and Zarek later on. Roslin is like a benevolent tyrant and even the benevolent part is questionable more often than not. She changes the goal post whenever it suits her needs and when someone objects, she invokes the age old cry of the oppressor about "security of the state", which is just code for those in charge getting carte blance for their abuses and essentially creating a dictatorship. She is just a total, powertripping bitch who thinks everyone should roll over when she snaps a finger. And then she sends in her boyfriend's troops if they dont do what she dictates.

I mean, why do they have to be such assholes to the workers? Why couldnt they work with them, make some concessions, meet them halfway? Whatever their needs as a fleet, you cant work people to death. They are still an asset and even slave owners know they cant do that. People get tired, exhausted, even if they dont actively sabotage, they will burn out and mess up on the job. So the right thing to do would have been for Roslin to meet with these people and work with them, not arrest and abuse and torture them. And bullshit on Roslin saying you cant get things done via extortion. It is called collective bargaining. You rely on the labor of these people to turn the wheels, you dont pay up, the work stops.

Simple as that. Why? Because people are what makes the machine work and they need to be compensated accordingly. They dont owe anyone subpar working conditions or their lives.

And then the way they threatened Tyrol to throw his family out the airlock. Disgusting. It is really stunts like this throughout the show that have often made me wonder why humanity deserves to be saved in the first place. Often I find myself rooting for the Cylons hoping they finally put these wretched humans out of their misery and rid the universe of them.
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Ellen
Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 8:28pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: The Eye of Jupiter

Kara is really annoying. She is screwing Lee but then talks about how sacred marriage vows are to her. She's been treating her own husband like crap for months, abusing him, yet both of these losers are willing to die for this bitch. Wow.
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Ellen
Thu, Sep 7, 2017, 9:43pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: Collaborators

What I find intriguing is that humans, all over, when they are victims, can whine and cry about injustice and cruelty, but when it is their turn, so to speak, they have no qualms inflicting the same cruelty and injustice they have just been complaining about, on others - in the name of justice!!!

I find this episode disturbing because here you got these seemingly good folks murdering their fellow crew members and ostensibly last members of the human race in this cruel and horrendous street justice manner and they do so without a modicum of remorse or even introspection.

The tough questions about occupation and being forced by an enemy force to pick up a gun and work against your own people or else lose your life etc. werent addressed at all. And to me THAT would actually have been a much more relevant discussion to be had.

People collaborated, but why? Did they have a choice? Were they given one? What if they had refused? These are not simple times so to be looking for simple solutions, like bam bam execute, wasnt gonna work.

Plus, at this point in war you will be hard pressed to find people who have not done horrible things. Again, I want to point out Tigh, in Season 1, forcing Tyrol to close the door or hatch on his crew so they all died horribly. Or that civilian ship with several thousand humans that was blown up. Sure, Adama had no choice. Or did he? Did Jammer? Did Tyrol? Sometimes people become collaborators because they think at least this way I will be standing between my people and the occupiers. At least this way I can have some control over how people are handled.
Maybe that is what some of the collaborators thought when they joined. Maybe they thought they would rather round up families than leave it to the Centurions.

In other words, this wasnt a black and white issue but both the Circle saw it as that and I dont actually think the writers did a good job presenting the other side either. It was like ok they are traitors, so what do we do with them, when what they should have been asking is why these people did what they did, why and how occupations are hard and that in hard, desperate times you make hard, desperate choices.

Tigh may think he is not being just another thug exerting vengeance, but he is. All of them were and wearing that uniform and giving themselves a fancy name wasnt gonna change that.

What bothers me is that at the end neither Kara or Tigh or any of these people showed even an ounce of remorse for what they had done. This episode would have been much stronger if they had had that inner conflict, that inner turmoil, realizing what they had done was wrong. But they didnt.

So Tigh did what he did for the right reasons. Well yeah, so did Jammer. So Baltar.

The right reasons are in the eye of the beholder.

All that said, why on Earth do people think Gaeta was a traitor? Just cause he was chief of staff and was there? Did these jerks really think he or Baltar could have just said no? Staged a revolution? What should they have done? Quit? Like that was an option? These people are so fucking short sighted. Gaeta wasnt a traitor and neither was Baltar. They were puppets of a ruthless force. Even if Gaeta had NOT slipped the resistance the info, he would still not be a traitor.

And the worst part is, they got away with it. Not even a slap on the wrist for picking out alleged collaborators and throwing them out an airlock. All forgiven, which is ironic later on when they all want to bathe in Baltar's blood because he was allegedly a traitor. But unlike these assholes, Baltar didnt actually get anyone killed. He neither pulled the trigger on anyone nor was he a personal party to anyone's execution. Yet he is condemned as waste of skin while these actual murderers got away scott free. It wasnt even an issue, it's like they hadnt just extinguished 12 lives, you know, those lives Roslin was so adamant about are so darn important that she had to make abortion illegal.
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Ellen
Thu, Sep 7, 2017, 8:18pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: Exodus, Part 2

I cant believe Tigh just fucking murdered his own. What the hell is wrong with these people? MURDERING YOUR OWN WIFE??? And for something like fucking the enemy and slipping them info in order to get his bony ass out of the slammer? It is not like she betrayed them cause she believed in the cause of Cylons. He didnt have to kill her, he could have brought her back to stand trial or whatever (and Roslin pardons all the so-called traitors/collaborators later on anyway).

I was appalled.

Yeah, whatever, humanity is definitely not worth saving if you ask me.
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Ellen
Mon, Sep 4, 2017, 2:02pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: Occupation/Precipice

I agree. Baltar's problem is that he is weak. I never, for one second, thought he was a traitor or deserved to be killed by the insurgents. That is why I never will understand why Saul et al ordered the hit, so to speak. Even Roslin herself says that the human government headed by Baltar is just one in appearance, so why would she, or anyone, think it ok to kill him like he had a choice. This line of reasoning goes on into his trial later on too.

These people are either incapable or unwilling to step back and look at the larger picture. Occupations by hostile forces, especially genocidal ones, are hard. They gnaw away at your morals, will to live, and they are dangerous. It becomes about pure survival at some point. Help or watch your family shot, or be tortured. As an occupied force you dont openly resist. That will just get you taken out back and shot.

Now I do have a rather ambiguous view toward collaborators. One thing to willingly collaborate in order to get a cushy life, quite something else to be held at gun point and told that if you dont do it, you will be eating the bullet. it is a grey area.

Ever seen the series "Colony"? [SPOILERS}Those people are essentially helping the aliens carry out the genocide of the human race. They are helping smooth out the murders in exchange for temporary comforts. The collaborators dont act like they are forced, held at gun point, they just collaborate and they do so willingly. There is only so many people the alien government can shoot before running out of people to do the groundwork so it is not like resistance would have bene futile.

But in Colony, the humans made it easy for the alien forces. In fact, they often outdid the aliens in terms of brutality against the humans they were put in charge of, even though they didnt really have to.

Anyway, I digress but my point is that those are the people who are rightful targets of insurgents cause they are willing participants. Torturing people with glee is not something the aliens made them do. [END SPOILERS]

Not so much here on BSG and Caprica Two. So Roslin asking that all those forced to help be killed was just another evidence of her shortsightedness.

At any rate. I dont think Baltar even wanted the job. He did it out of spite. Had Roslin not been such a dick to him, demanding him to resign and be so blatantly hostile toward him, the situation could have been placated and diffused. See, this is the problem with Roslin, she has no finesse and very little diplomatic skills. She wants it done and she wants it her way and anyone who objects can go "frack" themselves. That is not how you handle people, especially in politics.
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Ellen
Sun, Sep 3, 2017, 10:11pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S1: Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down

I just love Ellen. Or maybe it is the actress Kate Vernon, who plays Ellen, I dig? I dont lnow, but there is something about Vernon that really makes Ellen more than just a calculating, power hungry, selfish nightmare. She really infuses life and quirk into the character, makes her real rather than a caricature. I appreciate that.

The dinner scene is one of the highlights for me. Vernon's comedic timing is spot on, and when she screams BOO and the look on their faces. Priceless.

See, what I love about BSG is that its characters are real and therefore relatable. They are not cast, they inhabit their roles. And they behave like normal people. And there is no one normal than Ellen. She says stupid shit, she has a good time, she stumbles. She is real.

I cant believe she is married to Saul though. He is such a bore fest. He also seems like 25 years older. What did people see in Saul? First her, then Caprica Six? Am I missing something?
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Ellen
Sat, Sep 2, 2017, 7:06pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S2: Lay Down Your Burdens, Part 2

I fucking hate Roslin. She just repeatedly gives me this urge to want to smash her face in, again and again. It is Democracy and rule of law as long as she and her boyfriend get what they want, but the moment things dont go their way, they suspend all of those things and go rogue. When Adama deposed her sorry ass, she was screaming bloody murder but here she wants to rig the election. She cannot convince people to vote for her so she gets all abusive with Baltar.

"Im going to wipe the floor with you"

"why dont you go fuck yourself"

Well why dont YOU try making some compelling arguments to win instead of thinking people owed you thw vote cause you got a vague gut feeling that settling on this planet may be doom for all.

And seriously, make up your mind lady: are you the president or despot? Are these extraordinary times that require suspending laws and the Constitution and rule of law or not? Cant have it both ways based on which way the wind blows at the moment and what suits you.

Like it or not, Baltar made some very good points about settling there. And at that point in time his guess about whether the Cylons would find them was as good as hers. Or anybody's. What makes these people think the cylons wont find earth too? In fact, the moment they find out about it, then suddenly they want that to be their new home too. Heck, they go there with them and make a home there.

Anyway, if this episode is supposed to make me wanna side with Roslin, especially in this "I told you so " manner given what will happen later (occupation) then it grossly backfired. Baltar wanting to settle here was not at all outrageous. It made sense. Roslin not being able to make her case and getting all nasty about it, didnt help. Whatever happens on Caprica Two later is not Baltar's fault either. I wanna see Roslin rebel while sitting on her chair surrounded by 6 cylons, one of whom holds a gun to her head and says "DO THIS" or I'll pull the trigger.
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Ellen
Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 5:25pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S2: The Captain's Hand

The point is not that the life of a criminal is worth the same as the life of a fetus, the point is that if the rationale for wanting to ban abortion is that we are the LAST of the human race and we need to save as many as we can, that every human matters, then maybe that logic should be applied at all levels, not just when it comes to birthing out babies. If we are, literally, the last humans left, then maybe some thought should go into maybe reevaluating capital punishment. But they dont do that and that is hypocritical. If you are not going to apply that principle consistently then you are just picking and choosing and going after the lowest hanging fruit. As I said, who could say no to babies. Apparently I, even though I got a couple of my own.

Not to mention that Roslin and Adama have been and will continue to have a gross disregard for life, human life, at every level anyway. This is not even talking about the civilian ship of more than 3000 or so people they just let be blown up "for the common good", but their punitive measures too. They later wanted to execute Baltar, a brilliant mind who was, at gun point, forced to do the bidding of the cylons, alleging he was a traitor who had a choice. They didnt even wanna give him a trial. In fact, Adama was ready to suspend the trial when Lee started asking his girlfriend some hard questions.

Adama threatened to execute Tyrol's wife and baby during the worker revolt and because he was standing up for the abused and overworked slave laborers and wanted improved working conditions. Not to mention the vigilantes who, after Caparica Two, executed about a dozen people and got away with it. That's 12 humans less and it is debatable they were traitors. And even if they really were, a court of law should have determined so, not their private tribunal. And not with executions that they didnt even get a slap on the wrist for.

And dont even get me started on putting Gaeta in front of a firing squad because he objected to selling out to the cylons. Now right or wrong, he was still a human being and a damn loyal one too. Yeah he engaged in mutiny, but if you can forgive the genocide of the human race and make friends with the murderers, maybe you can forgive Gaeta too. But no they couldnt casue Adama is an asshole.

That said, I am not interested in discussing the merits of pro choice and abortion here on this forum. First of all that was not the main point of my argument (Adama and Roslin's hypocrisy was) and hey, if you dont like abortions pal, dont get them....
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