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Daya
Wed, May 8, 2019, 1:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Leif. No one had used welding sparks to signify time travel before.
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Daya
Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 6:02am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Since the corporate takeover the Jammer that you see is not the original Jammer. They try to make you believe he is the same Jammer, but the truth is that this new "Prime" Jammer is contractually bound to be "at least 25% different" than the canon Jammer. This is the reason for the shift of 1 star in a 4 star rating system. 25%.
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Daya
Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 2:26pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

They could have tied a rope to the lever that closed the blast door and pulled on it staying on the safe side of the door.
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Daya
Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 11:53pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

About why Admiral Cornwall didn't transport out: the Enterprise transporter was not created for within-ship transport (i.e. site-to-site transport; ref: Day of the Dove). The Discovery had their shields up.
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Daya
Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 12:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

"Nits" is a unit of Shannon entropy. Either your use of nits is unwittingly cool, or you are the actual father of information theory.
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Daya
Wed, Apr 24, 2019, 8:43am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Booming: Nope! They clearly showed Saru seeing Michael in the present episode.

@Trent: She's an angel. She just hung around.
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Daya
Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 11:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

There was a controversy last week about where Michael's vision really started. Most of us had missed the fact that it started before a single photon torpedo was fired. Hilariously, whoever edited together the recap at the beginning of this week's episode missed that fact as well, and edited it as if the shots were really fired. Go look at it and see if I'm wrong. :D

= = = =

I listened to the mixing of the Discovery theme song and Alexander Courage's TOS theme song at the end of the episode again. It is expertly done, especially given the fact that these two pieces of music do not fit together musically at all. The TOS music has to be distorted in tempo, cadence and the actual notes themselves to fit with the Discovery music. In fact, before the high-pitched soprano voice starts (a throwback to almost the same voice in the original TOS theme), it is much harder to recognize the TOS theme even exists in this mix. And it ends lamely on a half-hearted attempt at the TOS theme and gives up Discovery completely. ;)
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Daya
Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 1:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Alan Roi:

I think that was a wonderful exposition (Verne vs Wells). Thanks.

So let us say there is a club of Golden Age (Vernian) sci-fi aficionados. Their club would be all about debate. Debating the philosophical implications of each scenario, the choices made by the characters, etc. Now they are introduced to Wellsian sci-fi. They just do not know how to engage with it, because the story seems impervious to their usual mode of engagement. In fact, they will think there is nothing here to engage with. Maybe this will enrage them and they will turn their sharpened debating skills against those who in their mind are replacing their favorite pass-time with "all this mindless tripe".

But then, what is the correct way of engaging with this new mode of entertainment? There are no philosophical discussions to be had. And there is no way to even try to be objective about emotions, feelings, beauty, aesthetics, etc. So does one describe one's subjective impressions about such things and leave it at that? Doesn't one even attempt reconciliation between various points of view? Is there no constructive debate to be had? Let me know what you think about how a group of individuals can communally engage fruitfully with this form of art.
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Daya
Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 7:40am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

I think no one has pointed this specific point out, so I will:

It's the serialized arc format which exacerbates the plot hole perception. I can think of TOS/TNG as a series of capsulized fantasies, and it doesn't hurt me if the logic of transporter technology, holodecks, time travel, Federation politics, or anything for that matter does not remain the same across episodes. I am willing to go with the conceit of this particular episode, to try to understand the point the particular writer is trying to make. I am reassured that there is no larger impact of the inconsistency.

There might be inconsistencies within an episode as well, but they still do not affect me so much because the entire episode is a capsule, and I am reassured that the inconsistency will not leak beyond its boundaries. In an arc format, all the inconsistencies go on piling in a single mental heap, at the end of which the perception is that of a mess.
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Daya
Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 8:26am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Thanks for the replies, Alan Roi. No snarky comebacks from me.

(I'm not convinced of your comment regarding City, but that is a sincere discussion I will save for later.)
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Daya
Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 8:00am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

12. The nanites can infect anyone in a single touch, but choose not to do so. (Maybe they are nice.)

13. The timey-wimey temporal logic of the universe allows predestination loops and spawning of new timelines to both occur simultaneously. (I just cannot wrap my head around this one.)
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Daya
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:36am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Spock is seeing his sister for the very last time. What is he going to say? "You were kinda ok, see ya around"? He is going to embellish a little because that is all Michael will remember him by.
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Daya
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 5:58am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Hello. I don't think Control/Leland died completely. He was in the spore cage. I think there's a reason for that. I think a few nanites figured out how to jump into the spore world from here. There they will slowly build technology and multiply, and in fifty years build the first Unicomplex in spore world ("transwarp hub"). Then they will jump out and start taking over the real world again as the Borg.

Did the writers get scared to say all of this explicitly? May be they left out making this explicit, so as not to offend any one. But the similarities of Control to the Borg, Leland's death in the spore cage, Tilly/Culber's sojourns to the spore world and back, the spore world's transwarp capabilities, "struggle is pointless", poking the eye with nanites, hunger to assimilate, all indicate that this was clearly intended throughout their writing.
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Daya
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 4:11am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

I liked it. The ending on the Enterprise was great with all the bridge sounds, Spock finally taking his seat, and Alexander Courage's music in the end caused me to really believe they will be going on the five year mission soon.

This is the last Spock / Pike will ever see of Discovery, and somehow I want to stay in Spock's timeline and bid them a final goodbye as I see them blazing a trail of glory into the future. I am glad the episode chose this strange point of view for the ending.

= = = =

"Mr. Spock to the bridge." That's Kirk. Captain James T. Kirk. I just can't reconcile that voice with Pike. They used Shatner's recording. I'm sure of it. Is it possible that young Jim Kirk is a bridge officer on the Enterprise? Anyway they were pretty much all breaking the fourth wall in that final scene so we don't have to take it so seriously.

Also, the Enterprise warped away almost like it used to in the TOS title sequence. No warp flattening, just high speed. Also, they did the "the Cage" opening shot in reverse at the end. All cool.
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Daya
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 10:04am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

I have an observation about human beings in general. When humans dislike something, they are not really aware of why they actually dislike it. They are more likely to give the reason that seems most logical than the one that is the actual truth when explaining their distaste for something. Humans are not aware that they do this.
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Daya
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 11:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

At first I thought it's a non sequitur as well. But after thinking about it, it is actually a good example of the kind requested. Thanks, Alan Roi. Let's move on to other topics as Jammer seems to have asked us to.
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Daya
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 10:53am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

I think Alan Roi would be a little sceptical of answering the question because if he gives us an example "A" of great plotting, some of us may not think it is great plotting. I believe he also thinks that some of us will argue in bad faith, i.e. any A he points out, some of us will say it is bad plotting regardless of what we would have neutrally believed. This is why he refuses to engage.

I, for one, even though lukewarm about Discovery, would really like to hear these examples of great plotting from Alan Roi, because he is one of the most careful viewers of the show. It would be educational, and it may help me enjoy the show better.

(I am not saying that anybody on this board actually argues in bad faith, I am not pointing any fingers, and do not mean to.)
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Daya
Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 1:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@Lynos: "... I dunno, her 'stop!' sounds too urgent ..."

It's Michael Burnham. Everything sounds too urgent.
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Daya
Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 1:53pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@Ghosted:

Oh I like that! We have a time crystal and the spore drive (together known as the TARDIS). It would not be impossible to make Burnham go a few hundred years into the past in the gamma quadrant and become the first Borg queen. It will happen in the course of some supreme sacrifice on Burnham's part to save the entire galaxy.

The rest of the crew abandons Discovery which travels a few hundred years into the future and becomes fully sentient slowly after that by assimilating the sphere data. The third season of Discovery starts post-Calypso with just the Discovery, no crew. That would really be a fresh take!
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Daya
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 5:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@Lynos

"Why would it make no sense?" It would make no sense because they didn't have a shot of Burnham waking up from a reverie, and realizing she was having an unconnected premonition. They only had a shot of Burnham realizing something and shouting stop. (Originally, she just realized the futility of shooting torpedoes.) Now why would she wake up from an unrelated vision and realize something and shout stop? It made no sense. So they made the futility of the photon torpedoes another pre-vision, so there was some reason for her realization expression which could then be used to transition back to reality. There really was no other way to transition back to reality.

I also think that some script doctor person mandated the above change in the edit. The actual person doing the cutting didn't like the change and hid it to the best of his ability, trying to make many simple viewers believe the scene actually does play straight. (After all remove the person walking backwards and there is no real indication that vision 1 even exists. The dialogue can sincerely repeat after having fired a few photon torpedoes unsuccesfully. "That is impossible...".)

I also think the Earth is flat.

= = = =

Somewhat related: no one else till now has had an actual premonition without being close to the crystals. So this vision is unique. Another indication it was added in post.

= = = =

@Alan Roi

I have a premonition you are about to drop another bombshell. An undetonated photon torpedo in our enterprise. Do we even want to know? I'm already flailing my arms around shouting "Does not compute!"
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Daya
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 4:13pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

Ah the innocence of youth. I was once like you, Jason: sweetly naive and simple. And then Alan Roiled it all by pointing out that *no torpedoes were fired*.
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Daya
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 2:20pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@Lynos:

In the TNG episode The Eye of the Beholder, the transition between reality and fantasy being imperceptible *was* the point. That the participant cannot differentiate between the two is the "scare" in that episode. It's like a well done Night Shyamalan movie. In Such Sweet Sorrow, I do see the point in principle -- only once the premonition is over will Michael realize it was a premonition and not reality, so the premonition transition should be subtle, just like in The Eye of the Beholder. I think if the extremely garish premonition-time-jump into the deep future premonition had not been attached to the first near future premonition, more of us would have been able to tell that the original thing was a premonition. (Repeating the exact same dialogues 10 seconds later would be easier to detect than 3 minutes later after an entire murder-and-mayhem sequence.) Such Sweet Sorrow is like a bad Night Shyamalan Movie.

= = = =

So, since Alan is now onboard with the original conspiracy theory, I am going to cook up a new one for all of you. Here goes.

The photon torpedo scene was supposed to be played straight. There is enough material in the shots to edit it to play straight, and I claim while shooting that was the intent. Photon torpedoes, really fired. But they wanted to show the photon torpedo in Enterprise's hull premonition somewhere (we will understand the reason next week). Though they showed a glimpse of that when Michael touches the time crystal, and at the end of the episode when Jet Reno gets close to the crystal, giving Michael the entire premonition so early on would have caused her to change many things in the plan thus it was untenable, and Jet Reno getting the premonition would make her the center of the story next week so that was untenable.

This they discovered during editing: that none of these choices worked story-wise. So they decided to shoehorn the premonition in a third location, the photon torpedo scene. Now just the Enterprise photon torpedo premonition in that shot would make no sense, they had to somehow connect it to the current scene, so they decided to show two premonitions in series, one about the current photon torpedoes being useless and another about an undetonated photon torpedo in Enterprise's hull. The meaning of the second premonition will "dawn" on Michael only in the next episode.

Now, they had no real signifier shot for the start-of-premonition, so they just played a reaction shot that they had backwards, and added a sound foley in post production to signify the start of the premonition. They used slightly different shots of the three sentences uttered by Saru, Pike and Amin before and after to signify the repetition. They hoped no one would notice Burnham's slightly wrong tense in "should have". Spock speaks anything deadpan, so that worked well for them.

Maybe they realized the logical fallacies (a) it would be downright irresponsible to take Michael's word without trying out at least a few photon torpedoes, (b) Michael told no one she is speaking from a premonitory perspective, (c) autodestruct failure by itself is a rather weak indication that the sphere data has taken over the Discovery, the shields raised would have been an act of commission, requiring a clear agency on somebody / something's part but no one saw that happen, (d) you can tell whether another ship's shields are raised without firing torpedoes at it, and if they are not, you should try to fire at least some torpedoes and if they are that itself should be a cause for concern on the Enterprise bridge. Then they said, in the editing room, let's cut everything together so fast, hopefully no one will notice the problems.

TL;DR: The photon torpedo strangeness was created entirely in post production.

Bu ha ha ha ha!
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Daya
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 3:11am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@Alan: No no no. You got it wrong again, as usual. Everything from Lorca picking up Burnham with a tractor beam is Burnham's fantasy. (That is what the rewind signified - we have to go way back to find the start of the fantasy.) It explains evvvvvrything.
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Daya
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 1:23am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@Lynos: the time rewind does occur somewhere, because Saru's "that is impossible", Pike's "arm photon torpedoes" and Amin's "photon torpedoes ready" are duplicated in the beginning and the end. So either the first iteration of these dialogues are vision, or the second iteration are the vision's version of "catch up to live", or Burnham did actually live those 5 seconds twice. The place in the edit where the time-rewind shot is placed is nonsensical to me, and I am not defending the show at all. Trying to find what they might have meant to mean, that is all.
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Daya
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 1:16am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

About where the premonition started. Please look at the scene, right after Amin says "photon torpedoes ready". A red shirt human female with her hair in a bun walks in reverse behind Burnham. There is no reason to put in that shot unless they meant to signify the start of the premonition.

I agree with everyone that it is impossible to detect this: they have done a much stronger "start of premonition" transition later, which is now to be interpreted as a time jump within the premonition. Burnham's usage of "should have" is not helping either. Everyone on this board, including me, (excluding the marvelous Alan Roi) seems to have assumed that the premonition started on the Discovery bridge during the battle; proving that their editing choice was a strange one.

I was similarly confused in the TNG episode "Eye of the Beholder". It took me many rewatches to figure out what had actually happened there. The problem was exactly the same: though many "start of fantasy" signifiers were present throughout the episode, the start of the actual fantasy was not signified by any editing transition at all. The fantasy merged seamlessly into the present, making it very hard to determine what happened in that episode. Discovery has used the same technique. In my humble opinion the use of the technique is pointless here, and serves only to confuse the audience.

Furthermore, as I have noted above, with no photon torpedoes fired, the scene becomes really really strange to me. Bordering on the illogical. Alan Roi too seems to accept that it is "kind of bananas" but thinks that any messing-with-time scene will be so. I understand it is a contentious point, so let us carefully keep the discussion civil. Both sides. Thanks.


TL;DR: A red shirt walks in reverse, which is the start of the premonition.
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