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Re: ENT S4: Bound
Trek comedies are often weak because comedy wasn't in the wheelhouse of the writers, directors and certain actors. They fail more often then they succeed at being funny, but hey, at least the showrunners idn't limit themselves and sometimes itt actually worked.
The concept behind the Orions is what it is: you can choose to either be offended by them or laugh at how silly it all is. Yes, it's a dumb puerile fantasy straight out of a porno, so what do you do with it? There's nothing really to analyze.
I think the real disconnect here is that mid-period Trek is usually supposed to be taken seriously and these goofy sitcom-like episodes are jarring. Case in point: the reaction to "Precious Cargo" or Ferengi episodes.
In TOS, it's way easier to accept the premise and laugh at this stuff because that show already has campy elements. (I'd argue that's part of that show's appeal.)
Anyways, I found this episode somewhat amusing yet dumb in its slavish homage to the TOS ethos (including the unintentional camp). It passed the time, then I went about my day and never gave it another thought.
Trek comedies are often weak because comedy wasn't in the wheelhouse of the writers, directors and certain actors. They fail more often then they succeed at being funny, but hey, at least the showrunners idn't limit themselves and sometimes itt actually worked.
The concept behind the Orions is what it is: you can choose to either be offended by them or laugh at how silly it all is. Yes, it's a dumb puerile fantasy straight out of a porno, so what do you do with it? There's nothing really to analyze.
I think the real disconnect here is that mid-period Trek is usually supposed to be taken seriously and these goofy sitcom-like episodes are jarring. Case in point: the reaction to "Precious Cargo" or Ferengi episodes.
In TOS, it's way easier to accept the premise and laugh at this stuff because that show already has campy elements. (I'd argue that's part of that show's appeal.)
Anyways, I found this episode somewhat amusing yet dumb in its slavish homage to the TOS ethos (including the unintentional camp). It passed the time, then I went about my day and never gave it another thought.
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken
https://mobile.twitter.com/SethMacFarlane/status/1384257488569081857
Seth Tweeted:
"Season 3 is on its way. It will be more than worth the wait, I promise!"
https://mobile.twitter.com/SethMacFarlane/status/1384257488569081857
Seth Tweeted:
"Season 3 is on its way. It will be more than worth the wait, I promise!"
Re: TNG S4: Brothers
^
I have to agree. I have NEVER thought that was actually Patrick Stewart's voice.
I always figured they brought in a imitator and dubbed it in post because Stewart didn't want to be bothered wasting an afternoon saying a bunch of random words in monotone over and over again.
^
I have to agree. I have NEVER thought that was actually Patrick Stewart's voice.
I always figured they brought in a imitator and dubbed it in post because Stewart didn't want to be bothered wasting an afternoon saying a bunch of random words in monotone over and over again.
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast
@ Trish
Man, it's crazy the hurdles people are dealt in life. I'm still getting over a bad accident that happened at my job last October so I truly understand the struggle. Your inner strength is admirable.
Oh yeah, thanks for joining the conversation! It's great to have more female perspectives represented here.
@ Trish
Man, it's crazy the hurdles people are dealt in life. I'm still getting over a bad accident that happened at my job last October so I truly understand the struggle. Your inner strength is admirable.
Oh yeah, thanks for joining the conversation! It's great to have more female perspectives represented here.
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken
We've got some episode titles now!
The first five episodes are:
"Electric Sheep"
"Shadow Realms"
"Mortality Paradox"
"Gently Falling Rain"
"A Tale of Two Topas"
We've got some episode titles now!
The first five episodes are:
"Electric Sheep"
"Shadow Realms"
"Mortality Paradox"
"Gently Falling Rain"
"A Tale of Two Topas"
Re: TOS S1: The Galileo Seven
Someone can correct me, but I believe women went from command roles to "yeobabes" because network people felt the show had no future with a woman in a command role. Number One was not well received even though she would have been one of the best characters on the show based on what we saw in the Cage.
Hard to fathom now, but that is how they thought back then.
Someone can correct me, but I believe women went from command roles to "yeobabes" because network people felt the show had no future with a woman in a command role. Number One was not well received even though she would have been one of the best characters on the show based on what we saw in the Cage.
Hard to fathom now, but that is how they thought back then.
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast
Am I the only one who has never liked Chevy Chase? He just oozes an insufferable attitude.
Am I the only one who has never liked Chevy Chase? He just oozes an insufferable attitude.
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast
And to tie that back to this episode:
The argument tha some are positing here can be applied to say that Soren's free speech rights weren't paramount and that a non-living entity had the right to check them.
And to tie that back to this episode:
The argument tha some are positing here can be applied to say that Soren's free speech rights weren't paramount and that a non-living entity had the right to check them.
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast
And yeah, the wheel HAS turned and ithat started over a decade ago. Why are some acting like this paradigm shift just began yesterday?
There's only one wing in politics gnashing their teeth to empty out the libraries, fire people for stating their opinions (off the clock) and handwaving away regulation of speech by private corporations.
If the right was doing it, I'd be JUST as indignant and vociferous ... so why aren't some of you?
And yeah, the wheel HAS turned and ithat started over a decade ago. Why are some acting like this paradigm shift just began yesterday?
There's only one wing in politics gnashing their teeth to empty out the libraries, fire people for stating their opinions (off the clock) and handwaving away regulation of speech by private corporations.
If the right was doing it, I'd be JUST as indignant and vociferous ... so why aren't some of you?
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast
Why should any non-living entity (like a business) have any right to regulate the speech of their employees (who are living)? A human being is alive, a business is not.
How can one be concerned about human rights and make the argument that a non-living corporation has the right to check those rights based on a arbitrary shifting standard?
Also, I must point out that sometimes pointless laws are passed to show that politicians care, but the reality is the laws were technically unnecessary. The reason anti-discrimination laws are Constititional is because they restate in another way what the Constitition already says just so there's no confusion.
You can't discriminate based on our enumerated rights, period.
Why should any non-living entity (like a business) have any right to regulate the speech of their employees (who are living)? A human being is alive, a business is not.
How can one be concerned about human rights and make the argument that a non-living corporation has the right to check those rights based on a arbitrary shifting standard?
Also, I must point out that sometimes pointless laws are passed to show that politicians care, but the reality is the laws were technically unnecessary. The reason anti-discrimination laws are Constititional is because they restate in another way what the Constitition already says just so there's no confusion.
You can't discriminate based on our enumerated rights, period.
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast
I do agree with Mal that this episode did have something to say about free speech and how that freedom is essential to one's right of self-determination .... and this episode IS kind of a bizarro world version of the current paradigm (even though Mal did paint his picture of today's climate a bit too vividly).
Thoughts?
I do agree with Mal that this episode did have something to say about free speech and how that freedom is essential to one's right of self-determination .... and this episode IS kind of a bizarro world version of the current paradigm (even though Mal did paint his picture of today's climate a bit too vividly).
Thoughts?
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast
If we're going to argue about this, please start with the idea of "enforced language" and how that imtersects with free speech rights.
And please, let's not use that "Freedom of speech is NOT freedom from consequences" BS argument.
You could use that argument to deny a person ANY of their rights: a business could fire a Muslim for taking a prayer break because, after all, "Freedom of religion isn't freedom from consequences".
Or if you don't want to talk to the police, they could kick you out of college because "freedom from self-incrimination isn't freedom from consequences". You could even use that argument to oppose forcing a baker to make a gay wedding cake.
If we're going to argue about this, please start with the idea of "enforced language" and how that imtersects with free speech rights.
And please, let's not use that "Freedom of speech is NOT freedom from consequences" BS argument.
You could use that argument to deny a person ANY of their rights: a business could fire a Muslim for taking a prayer break because, after all, "Freedom of religion isn't freedom from consequences".
Or if you don't want to talk to the police, they could kick you out of college because "freedom from self-incrimination isn't freedom from consequences". You could even use that argument to oppose forcing a baker to make a gay wedding cake.
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society
And of course the Trek writers were universalist.
The creators populated the ship with all different kinds of people for a reason. The lessons applied to everyone onboard no matter what their heritage, age or gender was.
And of course the Trek writers were universalist.
The creators populated the ship with all different kinds of people for a reason. The lessons applied to everyone onboard no matter what their heritage, age or gender was.
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society
@ James
Yes, you may ask why and I'll answer nicely.
The society in this episode was portrayed as
#1. Being selectively bred. Human relationships have no factor in the offspring reproduced.
This is analagous to the Chinese limiting when and who can have children and their enforced marriages of ethnic Ughyurs and Tibetans to Han Chinese.
#2. The individuals in the habitat had no independent agency.
The Chinese often force their populations to give up their jobs and move on a whim, forcing hundreds of thousands to relocate to the ghost cities they've constructed. The Chinese goverment also forces millions into certain professions against the people's will, they force allegiance to a goverment with full control and they openly use slave labor.
#3. The society in the episode kept essential facts hidden from the populace that should be known. It was known for weeks that the habitat would be destroyed yet the knowledge of that was kept secret.
This is analogous to the Chinese goverment's complete control of the dissemination of nformation. That government lies or covers up its actions as a matter of policy.
#4. The society portrayed in this episode used social pressure to suppress the wishes of the individual.
China's social credit system.
#5. The society in this episode created the notion that some people are inherently deserving of leadership because of their genetics.
This is analagous to the racist notion of Sino superiority and the way in which China suppresses minorities within its borders.
I'll probably think of more congruences, but I think that's a good start.
And the reason these comparisons are apt is because it illustrates how this episode failed to consider what would actually be entailed in creating such a society.
That habitat was still filed with humans and we're more fickle and random than what's shown here. In order to create such a "utopia", strongarm tactics like what the Chinese use would also have to be a factor.
@ James
Yes, you may ask why and I'll answer nicely.
The society in this episode was portrayed as
#1. Being selectively bred. Human relationships have no factor in the offspring reproduced.
This is analagous to the Chinese limiting when and who can have children and their enforced marriages of ethnic Ughyurs and Tibetans to Han Chinese.
#2. The individuals in the habitat had no independent agency.
The Chinese often force their populations to give up their jobs and move on a whim, forcing hundreds of thousands to relocate to the ghost cities they've constructed. The Chinese goverment also forces millions into certain professions against the people's will, they force allegiance to a goverment with full control and they openly use slave labor.
#3. The society in the episode kept essential facts hidden from the populace that should be known. It was known for weeks that the habitat would be destroyed yet the knowledge of that was kept secret.
This is analogous to the Chinese goverment's complete control of the dissemination of nformation. That government lies or covers up its actions as a matter of policy.
#4. The society portrayed in this episode used social pressure to suppress the wishes of the individual.
China's social credit system.
#5. The society in this episode created the notion that some people are inherently deserving of leadership because of their genetics.
This is analagous to the racist notion of Sino superiority and the way in which China suppresses minorities within its borders.
I'll probably think of more congruences, but I think that's a good start.
And the reason these comparisons are apt is because it illustrates how this episode failed to consider what would actually be entailed in creating such a society.
That habitat was still filed with humans and we're more fickle and random than what's shown here. In order to create such a "utopia", strongarm tactics like what the Chinese use would also have to be a factor.
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society
I literally never said "any" so stop lying.
I don't expect an apology so, unless you surprise me, I'm done responding to you, Booming. Forever.
And trust me, I have NO problem putting you on infinite ignore. I know you crave attention ... so it'll be the prize that never stops paying dividends.
Just know that, ten years from now, I'll still be chuckling at your wasted efforts to get me to engage.
Toodles!
I literally never said "any" so stop lying.
I don't expect an apology so, unless you surprise me, I'm done responding to you, Booming. Forever.
And trust me, I have NO problem putting you on infinite ignore. I know you crave attention ... so it'll be the prize that never stops paying dividends.
Just know that, ten years from now, I'll still be chuckling at your wasted efforts to get me to engage.
Toodles!
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society
I'll own up to my faults in this.
I'll fully acknowledge that I got indignant at certain points (and being indignant doesn't promote healthy discussion), but the notion that I only care about Chinese atrocities because it was a useful rhetorical tool is really offensive to me.
It also didn't help that I'm seeing people fret over battlefield terrorists not being read their rights. (Yes, me using the word "crying" was somewhat hyperbole, but still, it's not THAT much of hyperbole considering the volume of text hand-wringing about terrorist's human rights).
I knew two guys who were killed overseas in those pointless wars and I would happily trade them for the terrorists who sniped them, even if meant those terrorists didn't get a lawyer and were immediately blown up by a drone. (Unlike some, I'm fine with that in a battle scenario.)
That may explain some of how this thread went sideways.
Well, hopefully by now I've proved that I truly care about this subject. If not, I'm worse at this debating thing than I thought.
I'll own up to my faults in this.
I'll fully acknowledge that I got indignant at certain points (and being indignant doesn't promote healthy discussion), but the notion that I only care about Chinese atrocities because it was a useful rhetorical tool is really offensive to me.
It also didn't help that I'm seeing people fret over battlefield terrorists not being read their rights. (Yes, me using the word "crying" was somewhat hyperbole, but still, it's not THAT much of hyperbole considering the volume of text hand-wringing about terrorist's human rights).
I knew two guys who were killed overseas in those pointless wars and I would happily trade them for the terrorists who sniped them, even if meant those terrorists didn't get a lawyer and were immediately blown up by a drone. (Unlike some, I'm fine with that in a battle scenario.)
That may explain some of how this thread went sideways.
Well, hopefully by now I've proved that I truly care about this subject. If not, I'm worse at this debating thing than I thought.
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society
Perhaps if the Tibetans and Ughuyrs joined ISIS, they might care about their rights then?
Perhaps if the Tibetans and Ughuyrs joined ISIS, they might care about their rights then?
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society
The reason there is a "break" in because there are huge incongruities and dissonances in both what triggers people to speak up AND in how they formulate where to apply their attention.
I don't believe that the philosophy that Trek teaches was intended only for Western audiences, and regardless of that intention, the truths it teaches are universal.
I also don't believe non-interference is a Western concept at ALL, that's a HUMAN concept. (To say otherwise is to say that non-Westerners like to interfere .... which is another uncomfortable unspoken truth about this line of thought). Maybe that's part of the "break" too.
If someone wants to use some artificial lines on a map to decide which human rights are worth defending, that's on them.
But I think they should own up to the fact that they don't care because those people are, for whatever reason, "different".
The reason there is a "break" in because there are huge incongruities and dissonances in both what triggers people to speak up AND in how they formulate where to apply their attention.
I don't believe that the philosophy that Trek teaches was intended only for Western audiences, and regardless of that intention, the truths it teaches are universal.
I also don't believe non-interference is a Western concept at ALL, that's a HUMAN concept. (To say otherwise is to say that non-Westerners like to interfere .... which is another uncomfortable unspoken truth about this line of thought). Maybe that's part of the "break" too.
If someone wants to use some artificial lines on a map to decide which human rights are worth defending, that's on them.
But I think they should own up to the fact that they don't care because those people are, for whatever reason, "different".
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society
It says something about you that, instead of apologizing for a brazen lie, you attack my sincerity.
You don't seem to have any personal morality so why are you wagging your finger at me?
It says something about you that, instead of apologizing for a brazen lie, you attack my sincerity.
You don't seem to have any personal morality so why are you wagging your finger at me?
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society
Yes BECAUSE THE CLOSEST MODERN ANALOG TO THE SOCIETY PORTRAYED IN THIS EPISODE IS CHINA. I would have brought it up anyways because there is no way to divorce China from its actions.
The conversation didn't happen that way because some people were more concerned with sympathizing with ISIS and Al Qaeda.
You are acting like it's a bad thing to protest genocide. What the hell is your malfunction?!?!
Yes BECAUSE THE CLOSEST MODERN ANALOG TO THE SOCIETY PORTRAYED IN THIS EPISODE IS CHINA. I would have brought it up anyways because there is no way to divorce China from its actions.
The conversation didn't happen that way because some people were more concerned with sympathizing with ISIS and Al Qaeda.
You are acting like it's a bad thing to protest genocide. What the hell is your malfunction?!?!
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society
Reread the thread before you rewrite history, James.
I reviewed the episode and immediately followed it up with two posts bringing up Chinese policy. Trump wasn't even mentioned until the next day.
I'm sorry but I'm not going to allow an OBVIOUS lie to stand.
Scroll up, people. Hit control-F, type "Dave" and go through my responses.
That DIDN'T happen. Lies.
Reread the thread before you rewrite history, James.
I reviewed the episode and immediately followed it up with two posts bringing up Chinese policy. Trump wasn't even mentioned until the next day.
I'm sorry but I'm not going to allow an OBVIOUS lie to stand.
Scroll up, people. Hit control-F, type "Dave" and go through my responses.
That DIDN'T happen. Lies.
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