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Dave in MN
Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 9:41pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

Section 23.25

... since it's 25% different (possibly). ;)
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Dave in MN
Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 12:39am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Deflectors

This week they had security upgrades and a mock battle at Moclus. Last week, they mapped binary stars. Before that they made first contact. Before that Ed and Telieya were involved in intergalactic intrigue and space battles. Before that they visited low gravity Xekaya, and before that they rescued people from a planet about to crash into a star. Something sci-fi has happened every episode except the season premiere.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 11:28pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Deflectors

Well, this episode showed the Moclans willingly give The Orville self-repairing regenerative shielding, and other than the toroedo during the test, they were happy to do so and quite diplomatic. They weren't presented as evil protagonists.

It was when the "murder" happened did they grow noticeably "Klingon" in their interactions. (Moclans seem to have a more chill resting rate than Klingons do ). Even then they weren't completely unreasonable.

By the way, earlier someone asked how Moclans could know about heterosexual attraction:

I think that all Moclans are taught at a young age what crimes are REALLY bad .... they all know about this "archaic" attraction because they're told about it (and probably because someone at the top knew these kind of people would exist and wanted to combat that,)

Anyways, part of the fun of an episode like this is asking when/if its ok to judge an foreign/alien culture ... and if you think it's ok to do so, when and how to communicate how you feel without causing a breakdown in relations. And if you don't think it's ok to judge, how do justify being silent while you commingle with people endorsing something you KNOW is wrong? That's one of the things I enjoyed debating internally ... because I can see arguments for all sides. This show presents a subtextual framework to explore this issue.

Oh, and I just realized Klyden is the Keiko of The Orville. ;)
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 10:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

Remmick came onboard in Season 1 hunting a conspiracy and that was under Gene's watch and with his blessing. And that was before even we got to see the spine-roaches and secretive movements within Starfleet.

He might not have thought up the actual Section 31, but let's not pretend like Gene thought there wasn't a ineed for and existence if a. Internal/externsl security apparatus with special powers.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 10:35pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

@ Bold Helmsman

I literally said "Speaking just for myself". Why would you tell me to do what I I already freely admitted I was doing (more than once)? I was SHARING MY RATIONALE based on current evidence .

You don't score points in debates by not paying attention and skimming through my posts.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 10:03pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

We don't live in that hypothetical world. I wish we did.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 10:02pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

Ok, well he became a little wacky in his last unhealthy years, but he also was the man that created the whole thing and spearheaded it for decades. The people who became caretakers after his passing were conscious of his vision to explore ethics though a science fiction lens . They were close enough in time to the original that they were able to compliment his philosophical view of Trek with the assent of eager happy fans.

That vision is absent on Discovery.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:40pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

I pasted part of a text to my buddy about a car, sorry about that last part. (Haha, it's not easy typing huge missives on a phone).
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:37pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

We talked about this somewhere before on here, but I must underline that Peter is EXACTLY right about Lost.

I watched it from the start and within three or four episodes, I guessed "The Island" was actually space-time nexus that doubled as a spiritual doorway. It was essentially "Purgatory".

I liked the show, but I thought if the twist was going to basically be a redux of The Sixth Sense, I wasn't interested in watching dead people take 6 seasons to figure it out ... all while an ever- increasing convoluted mystery grew and had to be explained away.

I ended up reading a well- publicized interview with the showrunners of LOST and they swore up and down that the characters were not in purgatory and everything being shown (even minor details like books characters were reading) were there for a reason.

So I stuck with it. I thought, these guys are confident, they make no bones about knowing what they're doing, they promise explanations for everything (at that point I think it was just polar bears and smoke monsters that they would've had to explain away).

What I got? A fun journey that got ever more ridiculous ... flashbacks that became ever less interesting, favorite characters dying while annoying ones lived and .... the slap in the face of the final season. I was PISSED when I figured out the ending was exactly what they said it wouldn't be .... and nothing REALLY would be explained.

How that reflects .on this? I don't know .

I honestly don't even know if it is true. But there's enough "breadcrumbs" (appreciate the analogy Gil) sprinkled about that I thought you all should know about it. That's all.

I went online to read about the four
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:09pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

Does any of Discovery feel like something Gene would be proud of?

That's all I have to ask myself: I honestly believe he'd be appalled.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:07pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

@Omicron

It matters because they don't understand the brand and are terrible stewards of Roddenberry's legacy.

What expectation would we have that any other Trek made by CBS not be just as bad (if not worse)?

They are renting a brand to make a buck. Speaking just for myself, if this is even partially true, CBS should never be allowed to spearhead a Trek series again. If I were Paramount, I'd tank this deal. Better no Trek than a future of endless STD clones.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 8:57pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

Yikes, I hit post by accident before I could edit. Apologies for typos:

(Oft. = It, felt = feat
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 8:54pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

I KNOW I saw sketches from the STD people with notes in the margins talking about changes that needed to be made (oft- wasn't just the Evans statement, the extra features of the 1st season DVD actually has as couple of staff make allusions to the changes not being for purely aesthetic reasons

You can label it a "conspiracy", but I think it stands about an 85% chance of being completely true.

And that other 15%? Obvioysly whatever agreement these various corporate entities do have, the public still won't like it .... and since CBS really NEEDS to sell STD as a viable product, they'll make up terms like Prime and Kelvin and hope some hardcore fans bbc will accept whatever a Trek CBS makes as "true" canon Trek.

They can't accomplish that feit in an actual court because of the Viacom split (which has been public knowledge since they stopped making Enterprise), but I'm sure they're thinking a Hail Mary Pass to the Court of Public Opinion is at least worth a shot.

If they can be seen by the fandom as the "true" curators of the franchise, it's a permanent license to print money ... whether they're creations are actually canon or not... whether they tell cerebral stories or not.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 8:19pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection


Right, three supposedly separate and independent media corporations aren't going to pursue the truth in court because it might look bad ...

..... but these same multiple corporations (with tons of lawyers on retainer) are going to let a lie fester ... that also makes them look bad?

That's not how things work, especially when those making the claims are profiting from them. Especially when these same three corporations will sue their fans for anything and everything under the sun, REGARDLESS OF HOW IT LOOKS.

Not doing anything is not part of their modus operandi.

Try to think rationally: there's a reason different people have written news articles/Youtube reports and none are stopped.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 5:36pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

Maybe it's not true, I don't know.

But it does explain why Fuller and Moonves had a split over canon ... and why Fuller was unceremoniously sent to the curb... and it explains every non- canon thing that's ever happened: bald Klingorcs, the reliance on the all-new totally licensable Spore Driveā„¢, the redesigns of classic ships, the serialized non-philosophical storytelling, a Mary Sue sister for Spock, supernovae being instantly visible, tslking in a vacuum, holographic communications, why the few little things that didn't change (like sound effects and a Tribble appearing for a few seconds) aren't used in any product CBS has licensed ... basically everything that's not-Trek about Discovery.

Anyways, there's a (good) chance it is true, and IF it is ...

... then, from my perspective, you have to evaluate it ON THOSE TERMS.

Every episode is going to have a trade-off , it becomes a game of "How did they make that 25% different"? If it legally CAN'T be the Trek we once knew, then how is that fun for a fan?

I don't want psycho-incestuous Spock, I don't want the Ghostbusting of spore creatures, I don't want belligerent officers disobeying orders, I don't want character resurrections in the Upside Down, I don't want unscientific garbage that makes no rational sense.

I want Star Trek... you know, actual episodic science fiction with a philosophical bent.

STD isn't that: it is bad first-draft Epic Fantasy dressed up with a Star Trekkish fancy dress. It has no internal logic, no philosophy, no heart and no apparent endgame. This isn't Trek.

I want a crew that explores the galaxy while exploring issues, not this flashy boom-pow! program that honestly feels like a Mary Sue fanfic written by a casual fan .... especially when said show can, at maximum, 75% resemble what I like.

Despite my best efforts and multiple attempts, I can't get into it ... it's just not Trek, and it'll never be.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 5:01pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

The showrunners shared some pics of development sketches at a convention and handwritten notes were visible in the margins of their own images that had that same 25% number.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 3:39pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

I'm not going to get into the weeds debating the merits if you aren't willing to do some research to see if M.E.'s REPORTING (which is what it is, actual old- school 60 Minutes style journalism) was actually accurate.

Even his presentation, which includes internal production materials with handwritten notes (some unwittingly shared by the staff of STD themselves), is sourced and collated. Since then, we've seen several gaffes in both interviews and on Twitter (with various current Trek people) that seem to corroborate the theory, as well as CBS's oddly worded statement (very careful word choice there).

If you wish to, his multiple reports gave been dissected on Reddit and other forums. You can watch other people going down the rabbit hole to further shed light on the subject. Most fun (for me anyways) is watching a debunker ending up being the one to find a tidbit that further reinforce this reporting.

I think M.E. has First Amendment protection and CBS, Paramount and Bad Robot know it. Hes telling the truth.
There's nothing they can do ... if they sue, M.E. gets a discovery phase (ha!) in any legal action to see what the actual contract is.

Then it's public knowledge... and game over.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 3:19pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

^

That should have read "whatever Discovery is supposed to be."
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 3:17pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

There's a whole paper trail that leads up to this. M.E. actually has a MUCH longer video - almost an hour- that pieces together everything, and each individual piece of evidence can be found online for verification. There's also been sleuthing by others that have since shown further corroboration.

Again, you can scoff all you wish, but corporate entities don't allow people to rake in ad revenue while spreading untruths about their product, especially when said product is very expensive to produce and not doing so well. Not in the real world.

And, to Thomas, the reason it matters is seeing people here torture themselves to try to justify all the batshit stuff that happens on STD, whether about something canonical or the insane storytelling or rude character behavior unbecoming of Starfleet or the redesign of everything etc etc.

There's no point because it's not canon, it's a bizarro world version of Starfleet.

As I said, feel free to think what you want, but keep in mind that everytime you try to excuse every anti-Trek thing this show does, there's a distinct possibility you are helping CBS destroy the franchise by permanently morphing all future Trek into .... what Discovery is supposed to be.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 3:00pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

The CBS/Bad Robot peeps are notoriously lawsuit-happy with fan productions and unlicensed material.

If this were untrue, CBS would have sued them and there'd be a cease-and-desist letter. Instead, we get a nebulously worded statement from CBS about intellectual rights while Midnight's Edges publishes video after video while MONETIZING THEM.

Why haven't they stopped him if it's untrue and injurious to their product?

Because IT'S TRUE.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 2:55pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

@Mertov

I like you, Mertov, but seriously, try doing a little research before you say laughably untrue things.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 2:51pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

There's actually a lot of articles online about the rights issue, I just chose to relay one link that collates all that information.

You can attack the source, but while I'm not going to spam up this forum with links, the Viacom rift is public knowledge and one Google search will show you I'm not talking out of my ass.

But whatever, plug your ears and circle the wagon if you wish. I can't make you accept information if you don't want to.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 2:24pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

https://youtu.be/K828aSkhRHk

That's the link to the video explaining the copyrights and why STD/Nu Trek are so different than previous series.

You guys can say whatever you want, but the legal papers don't lie. Nothing Bad Reboot makes wil ever be canon ... or will tell Trek stories the way we became accustomed to over 40 years.

If Bad Robot & CBS think these alt-Treks are profitable, (for contractual reasons) you will never again see an episode like "Measure of a Man", "The Visitor" or "The City On The Edge of Forever."

Ask yourself, do you want that in your Trek for the rest of your life?

I don't.

Anyways, I've said enough. I just thought this was information a Trekkie might find prudent. Carry on!
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 2:04pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

If you want Trek to emulate Disco's sensibilities from here on out, keep handwaving away the egregious violations of canon this show does on a consistent basis.

Oh, and don't expect "Picard" to adhere to canon either .... there's a reason Stewart was saying this new series will be a very different Picard character than what we are accustomed to.

It won't be canon Picard, it'l be Prime Picard with a different history and backstory (that'll be at least 25% different in art, ship-design, direction, scoring and storytelling style).

I don't want to see an alt-Picard on a series that tells stories in the way STD does .... but maybe you do. If so, more power to you .... but I'm not interested in pew-pew Jean Luc.

Oh, well, at least I have The Orville (and it's Trekl-like moral dilemmas) to soothe the sting.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 1:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

I'm not gatekeeping my childhood.

I had decades of a franchise with multiple iterations, all of which honored the legacy of what it means to be Trek (philosophical exploration though a sci-fi lens). The various creators (not me) made the universe to be consistent with one history and made it a point to shoe that temporal changes/offshoots were anomalies that need to be corrected.

You can giggle and laugh all you want, but facts are facts. Nu-Trek and STD are bastardized offshoots that are contractually obligated to NOT BE LIKE other Treks. Hence the reliance on "pew pew".... and stupid ideas like Spock having a human sister (or Spock being a murderer).

I'm not doing anything wrong: i'm just explaining the real- world reasons STD and Nu-Trek are nothing like what came before ... and the futility of trying to justify this as "canon".

It's not, it's some perverted alternate reality where Starfleet officers are mutinous, MU mass murderers become captains and Tilly floats in the Upside Down spore world. It's NOT canon.
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