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Data's Ghost
Tue, May 19, 2020, 6:25am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Is a 94 minutes review really necessary? "We just got more Discovery" would have done it.
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Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 4:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

The Romulans were referenced in ST FIRST CONTACT when Picard informs the bridge crew of his orders to stay away from the battle with the Borg cube and go to patrol the Neutral Zone, in-case the 'Romulans decide to take advantage of the situation'. Now at face value this can be taken as simply a random excuse to keep Picard away from the battle, but perhaps there is a little more to it than simply just that.
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Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 1:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S4: These Are the Voyages...

"the anticlimax of ending the story before the would-be dramatic payoff is just flat-out wrong."

They should have simply ended "Season 4" with the episode "Terra Nova" and then marketed "These Are The Voyages" as a Special Episode which essentially serves as a Goodbye To The Fans. The reality is that the show was cancelled and that also meant Star Trek as a franchise was going away for a long time (On Television at least) after 18 years of continuous production (that's obviously a very long time, the amount of time it takes to reach adulthood!)
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Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 3:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S7: Endgame

Voyager just wasn't scoring enough in the ratings. It's as factual as it gets as to the reasons why Voyager abruptly ends like it does here. But it's not that simple.

I'd argue that the writers have to take a lot of the blame for all this.
The Voyager writers, producers, whoever, they didn't plan for Voyager getting home at all, clearly. They tried to simply do a two-part episode that really should have been more like a six-part epic that leads to Voyager returning 'home'.
I feel that this episode should have at least been the Season 6 finale.
Season 7 could have been an opportunity to explore the aftermath and to explore ideas relating to what returning home actually means for all these characters.
I see no reason why that would have been boring. I think it would have been an exciting change of pace, and would have allowed for more resolute ending.
Hell, the Borg could still be a feature for this hypothetical season back in the Alpha Quadrant. Don't think the Borg would be going quietly for sure.

Season 7 had some good episodes in the TNG spirit but to be absolutely honest Voyager was totally squandered as a premise by this point.
The writers had given up even trying. "Endgame" plays like a rerun of "All Good Things" to just tee-up the TNG honor worship this series has been.

Also, the Borg in this episode now resemble nothing of what they originally appeared to be back in TNG. The Queen even refers to herself as "I" and seems to literally be a ruler that is guiding the Borg collective rather than speaking with it.
That wasn't even explored really. Is the Queen some sort of Individual separate from the Borg Drones, or what? It's all just not answered.
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Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 3:39pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: Hide and Q

Thia episode has what I believe is one of the best scenes in the whole series. The scene I'm talking about is the one where Q quotes Hamlet and then Picard gives one of his trademark Shakespearean speeches.
Even here in Season 1 there are sprinklings ofgreatness that hint at how good TNG would eventually become.
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Lizzy DataLover
Mon, Jul 1, 2019, 12:24am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: All Good Things...

Omg I remember my anticipation for this episode! Sitting there in my room and pressing play on my DVD player was a moment I'll never forget. It was a little anticlimactic I think *only because it was meant to be to usher in the movies* but all in all a pretty great episode. (And let's be honest here definitely better than Nemesis ending wise. And in every aspect for that matter) I was dreading watching it because I didn't want the show to end but I knew It had to. Senile Picard was so sad, married Geordi was cute (Leah?) Captain Beverly was cool and omg Data with a dozen cats!! ^-^ I always knew he'd go down that road.

Regarding what Asher said earlier religion really is a driving force for our society and I doubt it's just gonna go away because we met up with some aliens in the future. In fact I would think religion would be pretty popular in Star Trek time because of all the crazy stuff they've seen. They have plenty of reason to believe in a higher power. They've literally met gods before! (Q, various TOS weirdos) I'm just saying I really admire Gene R's view of the future but the "no religion" thing really bugged me.

Also Troi and Crusher were pretty sadly underused. Troi is just the most useless annoying character I've ever seen. You could tell she really didn't have any idea what she was doing. Crusher was pretty poor as well, but not as much. And honestly, I'll take a boring Dr. Beverly over an evil Pulaski any day.

Real quick because I cant resist:

Picard: Sir Patrick Stewart is a real king and his character is very admirable but I think the early seasons just kinda ruined him for me. Later Picard can be downright badass but Early Picard needs to get off his high horse.

Riker: dude, this guy. I never really liked Riker he's just so shamelessly Kirk. Although for me Kirk did have some admirable moments despite being a ladie's man but Riker was just weird. That grin of his made me want to punch him so hard too many times.

Data: without a doubt the greatest character to ever be created right along Spock. His innocence and obvious humanity (which he is oblivious to) is just so appealing I could go on about him for hours. He is just the sweetest man. Not to mention Brent Spiner did him so much more than justice.

Geordi: he could have been somebody but he was reduced to the nerd boy who's really awkward around girls. Idk I feel like he's really likable but they didn't really give him a chance.

Worf: I love Worf. Maybe not as much as I love Data or Spock but Worf is runner up in the awkward outsider character field. He's funny and cool *when he's not getting his butt kicked of course* but I'm just a sucker for the outsider characters. They remind me of me.

Beverly: yeah kind of a waste but she had potential. I think her relationship with Picard was the main thing she had going for her and it was interesting to see but she could have been given more.

Troi: oh dear. She was just so useless! "I sense the Romulan commander is very anxious" yeah you mean because we have like all our phasers and torpedoes aimed at him? Who would have guessed.

Tasha: she had potential. But no. All she did was wine and cry and seduce innocent Pinocchios into her bedroom and I just couldn't stand her.

Wesley: boy am I glad they canned this little brat.

Pulaski: she doesn't even belong on the list but if i must then she is terrible and was a horribly written and mean spirited character who made season 2 worse than season 1. Somehow.

Wow it looks like Data really is the only reason I watch this show. I love Star Trek with a burning passion but dang, those characters. Sometimes they just disappointed beyond belief.
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Lizzy DataLover
Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 12:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: Shades of Gray

There is only one great thing about this episode. Pulaski's leaving!!!!!!!! :D

Y'all probably saw that one coming. But anyway the episode itself is pretty dry and the story *or lack there of* was pathetic. I understand they were going thru the writer's strike and what not, but seriously? At least some of the clips were from decent episodes.

Well it's all in the past now. Anyway I'm off to Starbase [insert number] to greet the lovely Dr. Crusher. ^-^

But before I go:

The Child: 3/10 I really don't like Deanna.

Where Silence Has Lease: 3/10 I just didn't understand anything.

Elementary, Dear Data: 6/10 cute. But it would have been nice if it stayed a Data episode.

The Outrageous Okona: 4/10 Data is funny tho.

Loud As A Whisper: 3/10 what in the world?

The Schizoid Man: 5/10 any excuse to do a Data abduction episode.

Unnatural Selection: 3/10 eww Pulaski.

A Matter Of Honor: 5/10 KLINGONS!!!!

The Measure Of A Man: 8/10 duuude this one. It loses points because Maddox is a little terd who I want to punch multiple times. Also this is the twenty fourth century. EVERYBODY is supposed to be accepted. Still good tho.

The Dauphion: 3/10 oh Wesley. I'm not even gonna bother checking to see if I spelled it right.

Contagion: 7/10 finally another good one.

The Royale: 5/10 silly.

Time Squared: 5/10 this one and Cause And Effect remind me of each other. I liked Effect better.

The Icarus Factor: 4/10 dude WTF?

Pen Pals: 6/10 Data is soooooo cute!! But ugh all that Prime Directive crap.

Q Who?: 7/10 I don't know bro. I always hated the Borg. They're just too good at being bad.

Samaritan Snare: 5/10 the Pakleds are funny. They make things go.

Up The Long Ladder: 3/10 what's with all the early season stereotypes?

Manhunt: 5/10 ehh. Hey Lwaxana was there.

The Emissary: 8/10 duuude K'Ehleyr is so cool!! And her and Worf brooo! I wish she could have been brought back. You know, for more than just a stupid death scene.

Peak Performance: 7/10 I love it when Data kicks ass.

Shades If Gray: 2/10 bye bye Pulaski.

Season 7 is still better.
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Lizzy DataLover
Sun, Jun 2, 2019, 9:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: The Last Outpost

This episode really was boring wasn't it? I always hated the the Ferengi *until Quark came along* so the whole time I just so wanted Picard to turn off that dang view screen.

Also it is pretty ridiculous and somewhat disrespectful a joke to say that Data can't find his way out of a finger trap. Nonetheless it was a cute little moment but only because every other moment was pure agony. And my goodness has anyone else noticed just how red Brent Spiner's eyes were in S1?? They always looked a little irritated by the contacts, but they're bad here and worse in Justice.

Also official ratings for S1:

Encounter At Farpoint: 6or7/10 it wasn't a perfect pilot by any means but I thought it was cute.

The Naked Now: 4/10 I had no idea what kind if perverted thoughts plaqued the crews minds.

Code Of Honor: 1/10 bro I didn't even know where to begin.

The Last Outpost: 3/10 just narrowly beating out Naked because at least it was amusing to see them trying to keep from tripping over their own feet.

Where No One Has gone Before: 5/10 it had its moments.

Lonely Among Us: 4/10 Data as Sherlock Holmes. That's all.

Justice: 2/10 oh wow.

The Battle: 4/10 more Ferengi. And whatever else was happening.

Hide And Q: 7/10 finally a halfway decent episode. Man Q is HILARIOUS.

Haven: 5/10 Majel Barret is the most beautiful woman I have ever seen.

The Big Goodbye: 8/10 it started the endless parade of holodeck madness to come. But it was a darn good episode.

Datalore: 8/10 it introduced Lore. ^-^

Angel One: 2/10 okay I'm fed up now.

11001001: 6or7/10 it was Riker centric and a bit confusing but good compared to the rest of the season.

Too Short A Season: 2/10 someone kill me.

When The Bough Breaks: 3/10 ugh.

Home Soil: 6/10 decent.

Coming Of Age: 4/10 I dont understand the praise of this episode it's Wesley centric for Q's sake.

Heart Of Glory: 5/10 so this is where all the mighty Klingon episodes began. Worf is really good tho.

Arsenal Of Freedom: 6/10 I was honestly astonished.

Symbiosis: 3/10 after school special.

Skin of Evil: 6/10 I never liked Tasha but this seemed a bit much. Although the creepiness of it all was interesting.

We'll Always Have Paris: 5/10 it loses points because Data uses a contraction. Plus it's dull.

Conspiracy: 7/10 duuude total creep factor.

The Neautral Zone: 6/10 decent.

Over all I'd much rather watch S7. It's times like this I'm so glad I watched them out of order. Now off to season 2.
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Lizzy DataLover
Sat, Jun 1, 2019, 11:52pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Masks

Masks is a generally underrated episode IMO. I really don't get what all the fuss is about, I didn't find it boring at all, in fact it was actually kind of exciting because it was so odd and exotic. But I'm one of the few who actually enjoyed a lot of S7. I feel the urge to rank this season's episodes real quick based on my personal opinion. *which to be honest usually defers from most*:)

Descent: 7/10 it had Lore in it. ^-^

Liaisons: 3/10 it was pretty dull.

Interface: 5/10 hey it's a Geordi episode where he's not fumbling over some chic.

Gambit: 6/10 I've never been a big Riker fan but the episode holds it's own. *episodes that is*

Phantasms: 8/10 it's creepy in all the right ways and was a weird change from normal.

Dark Page: 5/10 unlike most I'm a Lwaxana fan because I love Majel Barret and this was a somewhat interesting turn to see her character take.

Attached: 4/10 for some reason I strongly ship Picard/Beverly even though there seems to be an age difference there. That said, I didn't need an entire episode about it.

Force Of Nature: 3/10 painfully boring the only redeeming quality being the Spot B-plot.

Inheritance: 8/10 it gave us more insight into Data's background and family which I thought was cool. All he was missing was a mother.

Parallels: 8/10 awesome episode with some very interesting possibilities explored. I wish we could have seen more alternate realities.

The Pegasus: 5/10 like I said Riker episoded don't normally do anything for me. And how many evil admirals are in Starfleet?!

Homeward: 3/10 everyone in this one seems like a total dick because they refuse to help the dying species from finding a new home until they're backed into a corner and forced to. Lame.

Sub Rosa: 2/10 the only reason I give this one 2 is because I usually like the attempts at a darker atmosphere like Phantasms. This failed miserably however.

Lower Decks: 6or7/10 now before you send me hate mail let me explain that I'm just not a big fan of focusing more on random side characters. Most side characters are great, and I would have liked an episode about them, but most of the characters here are people we haven't even met and will never see again. I read a lot of Trek novels and whenever they focus all on a random OC more than the crew it makes it really dull for me. Apologies.

Thine Own Self: 8/10 I didn't expect an episode like this and it was pretty intriguing. Plus, Data. ;) although the B-plot with Deanna was dreadful.

Masks: 6/10 I don't know, I found it compelling because I wanted to see where it was going.

Eye Of The Beholder: 4/10 I think it's safe to say that Deanna is my least favorite character on TNG. Just beating out Riker because at least Jonathan Frakes is a good actor. :(

Genesis: 5/10 as ridiculous as it is, I have a soft spot for it. It's fun to see the crew turn into weird animal people. I think. Kinda. 4/10

Journey's End: 3/10 UGH WesleyBoyWonder is back. Yay.

Firstborn: 4/10 Klingon stuff has always confused me. I couldn't keep up anymore on DS9. But poor little Alexander tries so hard. And I like Worf.

Bloodlines: 3/10 this was just a confusing mess. But hey nice humanizing moment for Piacrd. Kind of.

Emergence: 7/10 yet another episode I enjoyed better than most fans. It was just really fun and thrown out there which I thought was compelling.

Preemptive Strike: 5/10 I didn't feel this was a suitable ending for Ro Laren at all. I really liked her and hated to see her leave especially under these circumstances. And it started the whole Maquis thing that would be done to death.

All Good Things...: 9/10 an instant classic. All Data's cats.

Over all not a bad season IMO, just underrated and underdone in some areas.

Plus I love when the talented Brent Spiner gets to strut his stuff. He's never as good as when he's Data, but that's because Data is a cosmic role beyond all roles.
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Lizzy DataLover
Sat, Jun 1, 2019, 10:02pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: Lonely Among Us

I didn't watch this show when it first aired on TV, *having not been born yet :)* but when I finally starting watching it, I saw most of the seasons somewhat out of order, so I already knew about Data's fascination with Sherlock Holmes and was so excited when I realized this was where it all began. I couldn't help but yell at my TV *yes! You will love him! Read the books!!* but then everyone was kinda rude to him about it. Yet another lame thing about S1 is just how mean they all were to Data most of the time. Of course everyone had such an attitude back then. Which really shows in this episode especially with the alien delegates. Sure they were kind of a nuisance but they were being considered for Federation membership.

All in all a pretty forgettable and dull episode. And what was with the ending? "Sir, one of the aliens was just brutally murdered, but that can wait, after all what's more important than mooning over the captain?" And why does Denise Crosby always sound like a teenage girl on the verge of blushing? *except in those moments where she's yelling about how mad she is. Sheesh.*
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Lizzy DataLover
Wed, May 22, 2019, 3:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Inner Light

@Peter G.

Thank you for your thoughts I believe they have given me a better perspective on the matter. I just always thought it was like he had literally just experienced a thirty year gap from his regular life and would have a hard time readjusting to the Enterprise. And then I thought about all the future episodes where someone mentions a past event from a previous season and laughed to myself, thinking (as Picard) "oh, you mean the Farpoint mission? Oh sure! It's been three decades, but I definitely have a very clear memory of that day." But your explanation makes more sense.
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Lizzy DataLover
Wed, May 22, 2019, 2:54pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Inner Light

I'm just gonna come out and say it, I never loved this episode as much as everyone else seems to. Don't get me wrong, I understand the appeal and it is a good episode, I was just never a huge Picard fan. But mostly the problem for me was that there's this plot hole type thing which has always bothered me. Allow me to explain:

When Captain Picard wakes up from his journey, everyone tells him what happened and he explains what he experienced and all is well correct? But my problem is... how in the world does he still remember these people?? I know they're his friends and they've served together for a while now, but remember, he spent 30 years on that planet. I know it hasn't actually been that long, but for him it has. He's just woken up from a literal lifetime of experiences and he's like "oh hey everybody, it's nice to see you all again. Welp, I'm off to play my new flute." When he really should have been like "oh, where am I? *gasp* Beverly? Beverly Crusher is it really you? You're just as beautiful as all those years ago. *gasp* NUMBER ONE! it's been so long! Such a good officer.. *gasp* DATA! my old friend! You're even more human than I remember." *looks around for a good ten minutes absorbing everything* "I'm finally home.." Seriously this was just odd to me. I mean come on dude it's been 30 YEARS and he acts like he just woke up from a freaking nap! *which he did, but again, he doesn't know that.* It would be like trying to remember all your old high school friends from back in the day. He'd have the whole nostalgia feelin' going on. I don't know. This has just always bothered me. You'd think Starfleet would at least have him go thru some tests or something to make sure he still remembers what everything is and what it does. But this is just my honest opinion.

All in all a good episode and I don't mean to stomp on it, I just hate plot holes as much as every other true fan. Please forgive. :)

Also I read Luke's comments from years ago and I have to sort of agree with some of the things he said. It really would have better if they had just asked Picard if he wanted to experience that life. But whatever. And I didn't read all the other comments *coz there are a lot* but if someone has already addressed the issue I brought up earlier then I'll be sure to ponder their thoughts. Thank you for not hating me. ^-^
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Lizzy DataLover
Sun, May 19, 2019, 11:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Parallels

Also them blue eyes on Data. Lol. ^-^
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Lizzy DataLover
Sun, May 19, 2019, 11:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Parallels

A universe where Guinan is captain of the Enterprise, Geordi and Data are a couple, Tasha Yar lived thru Armus only to be killed by Nagilum, (sparing poor Mr. Innocent Redshirt) Picard married Beverly and had to *shudder* adopt Wesley, using a holoemitter like the Doctor's they brought Minuet off the holodeck and she and Riker are in their own jazz band, Data dyed his hair mint blue for a new look, Deanna is SUPER modest and always wears very heavy sweaters, Wesley had a *not so accidental* accident and now he's paralyzed in a wheelchair, Worf and K'ehleyr are married with eight children, ect, ect.
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Lizzy DataLover
Sun, May 19, 2019, 9:47pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Force of Nature

A rather dull episode. But being a HUGE Data fangirl, I enjoyed the filler with him trying to train Spot the transgender cat.

"Geordi, I cannot stun my cat." Lol!!
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Lizzy DataLover
Sun, May 19, 2019, 2:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: Elementary, Dear Data


Yes, they were trying to recreate the Bones/Spock dynamic but for me they failed miserably.

And as I told Booming, even if Data can't be hurt on the same emotional level as we can, that certainly doesn't give Pulaski the right to disrespect him so much. And besides, I think we've seen time and again that Data sometimes can be wounded, maybe not entirely in the same way, but enough to where being looked at as a mere machine is unpleasant and not something he enjoys contemplating. I tend to defend him passionately on this issue mainly because he was a good person, and did not deserve the unfair treatment he received from Pulaski.

That is why I very much prefer Beverly, despite being so underused in storytelling it wasn't even funny. But to me, Pulaski was the bland one, because all I got from her character was prejudice and stubbornness which I didn't enjoy watching.
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Lizzy DataLover
Sun, May 19, 2019, 2:54am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: Elementary, Dear Data


Ah, we meet again. I do apologize for my potty mouth but you know how passionate I become.

Also dude even if Data doesn't have emotions, (which I for one am on the fence about) that doesn't mean it's okay for Pulaski to just stomp all over him! And my point about Moriarty is that if she really doesn't place much value on artifical intelligence then why is she so comfortable around a hologram, rather than an actual, physical being? I just will never understand her.

Which is why I am more than thankful they brought back Dr. Crusher. She may have been underused, but at least she was nice.
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Lizzy DataLover
Sun, May 19, 2019, 1:46am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: Elementary, Dear Data

I enjoyed this episode but ugh. Too much Pulaski. She managed to insult Data at least twenty times within the first ten minutes of the ep. And she was grossly wrong about everything she said too. No, Data would not "short circuit" if he had to solve a real mystery, he does it almost every day when he's on duty. And furthermore, I'd like to point out why Pulaski being on the show longer would not have been very appealing; having her around as a constant hamper on Data's quest for humanity would have ruined every episode involving his arc. He needs friends who encourage him like Geordi or Picard, not this bitch.

Worst part overall:
Pulaski seems perfectly comfortable around Moriarty, the douchebag hologram who kidnapped her; (she actually seemed kinda flirty) and yet she treats Data like shit, the sentient android who is nothing but kind and polite to her, even tho he should be flippin' her off. Ridiculous.

Also, am I the only one who noticed how Geordi sounds like he's got a cold?? Lol
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Mistah Datah
Sat, May 18, 2019, 10:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

“Can you give a single example from TNG that "stepped on TOS"?“

Just off the top of my head:

- The Warp system is completely rescaled and transwarp is forgotten.
- The years of the Eugenics Wars are changed.
- Data is supposed to be the first of his kind, but androids exist in TOS such as Mudd’s androids and the Sargon androids.
- Despite supposedly being offshoots of Vulcans, Romulans are given protruding foreheads in TNG.
- The first Enterprise is depicted as the movie version (“The Naked Now”).
- The Klingons measure in kilometers instead of kellicams like they do in other Treks.

The link above also gIves examples of Roddenberry disregarding TOS canon. You can see from the sources on that page that Roddenberry preferred a fluid canon that changed for a good story over following some strict rulebook. That Trek did as well as did canonically despite Roddenberry can likely be attributed to the studio keeping things in line. One advantage that TNG - ENT had were that the same rightsholders were in place and could keep things consistent (although there were still notable retcons like with the Trill and Borg).

“I also maintain that TNG and TOS are far closer in spirit than you're claiming. Sure, the style is somewhat different, but the themes are the same: Both shows are about a better future for humanity. Both shows are about exploring the unknown. Both shows have inspired many young people to become engineers or scientists.”

The latter half of your description is true with all the Treks, so I don’t want get into the weeds with you when we largely agree. My point was that TOS employed more of a conflict-style show than TNG. Famously, McCoy always had a bone to pick with Spock and called him racial epithets when they didn’t agree, which was often. The tone of the two shows is much different as well, with Kirk playing fast and loose with regulations and getting the Federation in hot water with other races (i.e The Klingons) whereas Picard paid close attention to Starfleet policies and formalities, preaching to others just how important it was not to break them.

“Comparing the TNG situation in 1987 to what's going on with Discovery today, doesn't make much sense.”

There’s enough similarities between the Trek reboots to make the discussion worthwhile. Like Discovery, TNG had the major backing of a studio that wanted Trek to do well in the long haul unlike the tenuous relationship TOS had with NBC. The span of time is similar albeit TNG took longer because Phase II got aborted. Also both the shows follow relative movie fame with TNG airing during the TOS movie peak and Discovery running after some modesty successful Trek movies.

I mentioned the TNG criticisms above, and today former cast members like Marina Sirtis criticize also Discovery. Although, it’s notable that Discovery actually has more support from the rank-and-file like Frakes than TNG did.

“Welcome to the forum and a great post. The hatred for TNG was not pedestrian and the anti-TNG discourse was led by prominent fan groups. Anti-DS9 discourse was even worse from what I remember (like I said, what the actors read - and they read numerous letters) was only half of the story.”

Yes, it’s easy to ignore these things nowadays because for a long Star Trek was “solved” with fans and writers more or less coming up with explanations that made all the retcons gel. I don’t mean to say Discovery doesn’t have serious continuity errors, because that’s disingenuous. I do think time will correct much of these errors, but In the meantime it’s great that fans point them out and keep the Disco team on their toes.
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Mistah Datah
Fri, May 17, 2019, 12:41pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

"And while I agree that the first season of TNG/DS9 weren't exactly masterpieces, I think they were terrible."

I liked TNG okay, especially EAF, "Datalore" and "Conspiracy". DS9 season one wasn't terrible, it's maybe the only Trek series post-TOS to have a good first season.

"At any rate, even those who think that the first season of TNG stunk, cannot deny that this show respected the source material from the start."

Maybe, although Roddenberry has gone on the record saying TOS is non-canon versus TNG. He was trying to do the show he wanted to do, and didn't mind stepping on TOS when it suited him. --

"It didn't start by trampling all over previous continuity. It didn't put up a huge sign that says in red letters "LOOK! We are doing everything differently just because we can!".
The TNG team also didn't spent nearly two years mocking their target audience and running a huge campaign to discredit anyone who values consistent worldbuilding and intelligent story-telling."

I'm confused, is this hyperbole? I've watched Discovery and don't feel mocked. Do you feel like something is mocking you if you don't like it?

Let me give you an example of Star Trek product I think is dumb: the new animated show set to air on Nickelodeon. Despite me thinking the show is geared towards a different audience than myself, I don't think it's mocking me. Maybe teenagers will like it and grow up to watch TNG along with me. So it doesn't appeal to me, but I'm not the end-all be-all of Star Trek fans.

For the sake of a balanced discussion, it's worth noting that product dilution is always possible, but just because dilution is possible doesn't mean studios should stop trying. Batman: The Animated Series was very experimental for its time; it hired a Japanese animation Studio and differed much from the films and live action Batman show. Yet, it succeeded on another level by showing young adults a Batman universe they could relate to. I think it's worth trying to make a product like that even if it's not for me.

"So really, comparing the Trekkie backlash to TNG with the Trekkie backlash to Discovery is nothing short of ridiculous."

I don't think you're addressing the discussion in honest terms. Have you not read about the fan and TOS cast backlash TNG received? From the TNG Wikipedia article alone:

"Several stars of The Original Series and the film franchise stated that they did not like the premise of a new series [TNG] set in the same universe that did not feature them. DeForest Kelley, who appeared in the pilot as Admiral Leonard McCoy, said that while he understood that the studio wanted to keep the franchise going beyond them, he felt that "there's only one Star Trek, and that's ours". James Doohan, who played Montgomery "Scotty" Scott, said that Star Trek was about the characters and with a new cast the studio was "trying to fool the public, and that's bad business." William Shatner, who portrayed James T. Kirk, was concerned with the overexposure of the franchise and how a new television series could affect future films.[9]"

So real criticism perhaps worse than Discovery's existed in the TNG era. Or, do you not agree that TOS and TNG were trying to do very different things? If your answer is they weren't then I think Roddenberry would be dissatisfied because he spent considerable effort trying to distance TNG from TOS. (If you haven't, read the link I posted above about TOS canon). After McCoy, no reference to TOS characters were allowed. Sarek was finally mentioned in season 3, and Spock made an appearance (after Roddenberry died) in Season 5 as part of a promotion for the final TOS movie. That sounds like deliberate effort to get away from TOS, not to try to keep TNG in check with it.

Otherwise, TNG was its own show. The closest shows to it are really the ones it spawned like DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. But for Roddenberry, TNG's success meant giving up the TOS model and try a more diplomatic, conflict-free future.

To summarize, (TL:DR for those of you playing the mobile version of JammerReviews), the TOS vs TNG and TNG vs DISC comparison is not only a valid one, it's an interesting opportunity to see how vast the Star Trek fanbase is and how it's changed if you sit down and do the research.
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Lizzy DataLover
Thu, May 16, 2019, 4:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: The Child

You are all making very good points I just hate it when people talk crap about Data. He's such a wonderful character, and to me he just seems like such a wonderful person. Every time some dumb jerky extra comes on the show and gives him *that look* I just get soooooooo pissed off. It's like, whhhhyyyyyyyyy????

I know I'm getting emotional here. But I seriously think that there is real potential in who Data is, and what could soon become him in our actual future.

Also is it too late to change my username to Data Got The feels?? Lol
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Lizzy DataLover
Thu, May 16, 2019, 12:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: The Child


I do see your point and I'm glad you're on my side. Thank you for defending Data in my absence!!


How dare you call him an "it". How dare you. Hoooow dare you. You're worse than Pulaski. I am no longer going to acknowledge you on this board.

And this is Star Trek man! Anyone can be alive if they want to be! HOPE FOR THE FUTURE!!!!
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Lizzy DataLover
Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:07pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: The Child

Also, commenting on what Chrome said, I would like to say that I do understand how one might be skeptical in this situation, but there is a difference between being skeptical and being flat out disrespectful. Data is an officer, and a darn good one at that, a member of the team, and is considered sentient and even *alive* (as his service record supposedly states) by Starfleet. So going in with a closed mind, but willing to explore his possibilities would have been much more tolerable than the way Pulaski basically snorts at Data and gives him such a holier than thou attitude all the time.

I really just don't appreciate the rude disrespectful and frankly unprofessional manner she presents to him. Always spewing "oh God, not this *thing* again" under her breath constantly. (Although she actually just said it all straight to his face which was far worse.)
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Lizzy DataLover
Wed, May 15, 2019, 2:38pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: The Child


Awesome name by the way. It's true that Data is obviously sentient and sapient based on the way he acts and integrates himself into society and the relationships he has with others. But I for one would like to think he is more than just a self aware collection of circuits and sub processors, and is truly the mechanical equivalent of a living human being with needs and feelings. Okay well I know the feelings part is kind of on shaky ground, but if you've seen all the Data episodes, then you know he's got a lot more going on than he believes. ;)

What's that Data? You say you can't feel anything? Ok sure I believe you. (Wink wink winkity wink)
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Lizzy DataLover
Wed, May 15, 2019, 1:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: The Child


I guess I do have to agree with everything you said. *mostly the nice things you said about Data* ;) and perhaps you're right if someone approached me and said they just created sentient artifical life I may want to see for myself. Siri and Alexa *no offense Charles I love them too* are obviously very different from Data and not entirely comparable in this situation, so presenting them may not be as impressive. But if you gave me someone as complex and human like as Data, I may be very well inclined to believe that perhaps there is something to the whole AI thing.

And you're right, we are meant to be on Data's side every step of the way, so I'm obviously more inclined to defend him than I might be in real life. But I have to say, that if the time ever does come when someone out there is able to create a being like him I will be eager to see the potential.

I just love Data so much I cant help but see him for the wonderfully kindhearted man he is! XD
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