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Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 12:05am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

Well, your comparison to today's USA is only fitting if you ignore stuff that was already mentioned, like the lack of a monetary system, free education, free food, free (insert many things that are not free in the US).

"If you take the current US economy, make medicine insanely cheap (not because the government pays for it, but because technology and knowledge have developed to make cures cheap) and make land insanely cheap, you can have the above economy without any economic transformation. Depending on how much everything costs in our utopian future, our future government could have far lower taxes that the US currently charges."

medicine in star trek is not cheap, it is free. land in star trek is not cheap, it is also free (and given out by the state). The Federation has no taxes.

I also said that it resembles more a communist utopia than a capitalist one which it clearly does. (Socialism is not communism)

"The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." (So yeah probably not capitalism)
Jean Luc Picard.

And with this subtle viral marketing for the new Picard series I'm out. :)
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:12pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

I always thought that most people in some way or another work for the Federation. As far as I understand it the Federation provides you with the stuff you need like replicators. Also Picard mentions that there is no more money and you definitely don't get payed working for the Feds. I agree to a certain degree about the post scarcity argument I just wanted to point out that it looks more like communism than capitalism.

@ Top hat
There is no private enterprise. At least not in the sense that people have big companies. Sure Sisko's dad has a restaurant and Picard has his vinyard but does he own that and who gets it when Picard dies? Who repairs his stuff or provides him with machines? That is all done by the Federation.
At least that is how I understood it.
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:01pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

Yeah, I have a few rough days (actually weeks) behind me and still a few in front of me so this was a welcome diversion.

Live long and prosper!
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 3:06am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

You know I thought that you would run for the hills and lick your very significant wounds but apparently this will be another page of 50 shades of grey. LET THE SPANKING BEGIN!

"but was instead using the "liberty ships vs u-boats" example to demonstrate the difficulties of having an extended supply chain across long distances across potential/actual hostile territory."
Still the example is at best an apples and oranges scenario considering that England (and the rest) would have just starved to death because the Islands were the center of the British Empire. Here we are talking about one resource and the Dominion doesn't have cloaks so the u-boat comparison is also off. But I get your general point. Convoys in potentially hostile territory are dangerous.

"This'll be the Dominion that has established a spy presence on Terra? The one that's been actively using subterfuge to try and get the Klingons and Federation to attack each other?"
You do realize that the USA does all that towards their allies, the Europeans. It is kind of a joke in Europe. For example the US embassy in Berlin has huge spy stuff on it's roof. It is less than 500m away from the chancellery and the parliament. The US also tries for more than 20 years now to pit the eastern European countries against the western European ones with the aim of dividing an potential global rival. So doing this kind of stuff is certainly not a sign of an war even a cold one but actually nothing unusual even towards allies. Sure the US doesn't want a war between Germany and Poland... I hope. :D

"And the ones, who (just a few episodes later) had prepared an attack on Bajor's sun which would destroy their entire civilisation? The Dominion which force breeds genetically altered shock-troopers addicted to a drug?"
Oh I don't even want to speculate what horrible potential plans China and the USA have in case war.
And about the drug thing. You do realize that you basically cannot be an US air force pilot on an aircraft carrier if you refuse to take drugs. *cough* Dexedrine *cough* So using drugs for military benefit is nothing unusual, in many militaries today it is the norm. Sure the US isn't breeding soldiers or so they say... :)

" The Dominion which had wiped out and destroyed all ships which they found on the other side of the wormhole without asking questions or attempting any form of negotiation? "
To quote the US President: What do you think? Our country is so innocent? :D
Man, this guy has given the world quotes for eternity.

"Though as we find out later, the Federation had a few dirty tricks of it's own tucked into the uniform..."

"Laying a minefield? Sounds like something you'd do in a time of war!"
You can mine your own territory as much as you want. There are numerous states who use minefields who are not planing to go to war or are at war.

"Gotta quote 'em all, baby!"
NO! You still ignored my contractor argument. Again if I might add...

"For better or worse, Star Trek has always preferred dramatic set-pieces over technical consistency: one week's technobabble is generally (and conveniently) forgotten by the very next episode"
Ok, that is a forbidden argument because if we accept that then reality in this forum breaks down. And if reality this reality breaks down then I would have to accept the fact that I already wasted 40 minutes answering questions about something that has no meaning which would not reflect well on the fact that all our lives will end at some point.

"I'll grant Dax to a degree"
You can grant Day full stop. :D

"Certainly, it would have been sensible to prepare for the potential arrival of the Jem Hadar as best as possible - and to put as much resource as possible into studying the ship"
That is what they did until the other ship arrived.

"First, it's mentioned fairly early on that this isn't a standard Jem Hadar ship, which in turn would imply that it could be more important than usual."
would imply that it could... be many things. What it means is that it is not a standard attack ship.

" This suggests that there may be a Dominion base or other assets nearby, or that it could even be some sort of transit route between points of the Dominion. As such, what are the odds that there are other Dominion ships which are less than three weeks travel away?"
No it doesn't. It could be an exploration vessel, a diplomatic vessel. A million things but vessel weeks away from the next outpost doesn't mean outpost nearby. The next Federation outpost was a week away. How long did Sisko have to wait for a pick up again? They only know that they are 3 weeks away from the nearest Dominion outpost. So hoping that the Dominion will need quite a bit of time is not unreasonable and considering the gains the logical choice.

"the Dominion has superior technology"
The Dominion ships can still not fly faster than warp 9.9. and logic dictates that three weeks away means at maximum speed because if it doesn't than why use a measurement of time not distance. In universe the writers wanted to indicate: "A ship would need three weeks from the nearest Dominion outpost."

"how quickly could they really travel to this planet if this ship is important to them for some reason?"
Again, they only appear so quickly because it is important but it could have just been some random troop transporter.

" If not, then at least you've gotten something useful out of it and there's little risk of the entire team being wiped out."
I thought that the shuttle gets destroyed shortly after they arrive at the ship.

"the Dominion would certainly notice the Defiant heading into the gamma quadrant, and would be more than willing to ambush and destroy it."
Yes but the Defiant is a week away. Dominion three weeks. Plus they only know that the Defiant is heading for the Gamma Quadrant not where they are going. Plus the Defiant has cloak.

"So whichever way you cut it, Sisco and co would have to spend at least a week sailing through territory monitored by the Dominion, in an uncloaked ship."
It is save to assume that only a very small part is monitored. I think they also mention that the Dominion didn't get near the wormhole for quite some time.

"Conflating the choice of an individual with the ethos of an organisation is pretty weak sauce, old chap."
Utilitarianism is often used in Star Trek. The needs of the many and so on.

"Star Fleet doesn't send it's members into high risk situations"
Are you sure?? :D

"You can perhaps argue that the crew had already volunteered for a high risk mission, given that they were in the Gamma quadrant in an essentially unprotected ship, but then we get back to just how ridiculous this entire scenario is..."
There are many mission in Star Trek that turn out high risk even though at first they seemed fairly low risk.
good one. :D

OMG an hour. I actually have stuff to do.
This has been fun. :)
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Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 3:23pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

Well, it is certainly closer to an (ideal) communist society than a capitalistic one. The state provides every basic need(food, health care, living space, free education) and also controls the means of production, no money, most people work for the state.
Sounds pretty communistic to me.
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Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 2:03pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

@ Fenn
I think one can compliment an episode if you can be on both sides of the argument for good reasons.

About Odo. As one of the super smarties pointed out. Odo loves Kira because she is sure about everything while he doubts everything.
Odo in a way is on a coming of age journey. He has his first love during the show, (kind of) parental issues,experiences friendships for the first time. At the beginning of the show he just exists but he has no deeper reason for doing anything apart from an inborn sense for order (or justice). Kira on the other hand has a fully formed personality at the beginning of the show. Sure she gets more open towards the Federation but that is pretty much it. Kira grows as a person but Odo is a changed being at the end of the show. I would argue that it fits his character to act selfish one could say childish/like a teenager while Kira acts more mature.
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Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 1:27pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

So true, Chrome. What about the husbands, wives, daughters and sons growing up without their loved ones?

Man, that will be an awkward conversation with Keiko when Miles gets home. :"Hi honey, crazy mission. Phew I decided to abandon you and the kids for some colony of time travelers but it... ." Then the vase hits his head.
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Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 12:57pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

You are backl Do you think your feeble arguments defeated me?!

About your first four paragraphs
As I pointed out the Federation is using contractors to trade with the Gamma Quadrant. They even traded with Dominion members like the Karemma.
Why not get the Flubilunian Empire or whatever to mine and the Ferengi to transport it. Easy.
Plus as somebody else mentioned they are not at war and the Dominion stated that they only attack ships that have entered their territory. It's is not at all like merry old England during WW2 for numerous reasons. (I hope I don't have to name them. It seems very obvious to me but I can if you want)

"(and indeed, a few episodes later, it’s revealed that Star Fleet is stretched thin and has virtually no resources to assign to DS9 when the incursion finally happens.)"
The Federation knew that it couldn't stop the Dominion, especially without the Romulans. "Giving up" the station while also mining the wormhole was a fairly smart choice. Plus they used the ships for destroying a big shipyard.
To quote Clausewitz:"The defensive form of war is not a simple shield, but a shield made up of well-directed blows."

"I’d also note that the Dominion has been picking off all ships travelling to the gamma quadrant, as per the earlier mentions of how Bajoran colonies had been destroyed."
I think they specifically tell the bridge crew that they destroyed only stuff in their territory (like the Bajoran colonies).

"Regarding the runabout: Star Trek has always had plenty of options for hiding." As I mentioned the Dominion has superior sensors so only hiding would have been risky but maybe possible but certainly not monitoring. The better option then would have been to just fly back.

"only Worf (and maybe O’Brien) had any significant military experience."
That is not true. Sisko and at least Dax have fought through numerous engagements. Dax probably more than anybody. We also don't know the capabilities of the other officers. I say bad reasoning and speculation, good sir. Speculation! *mustachioed British officer from the 19th century smiley"

" And at the point Sisco made his judgement call, he was not aware of the presence of the founder, so couldn’t consider the crashed ship to be a potentially defensible position"
And you did so well... (Picture me as the genius villain who gives his big speech). You argument is more shaky as you may realize, Mr. Mann. Yes Sisko didn't know that there was a founder on the ship BUT he did know that they were three weeks outside of Dominion space and if it was just one of the endless amounts of ships it would probably take quite a while maybe weeks until the Dominion notices and then sends a rescue ship. Sisko's decision makes perfect sense. Only because of the founder did the Dominion arrive so fast. Without it the Defiant would have arrived a week later, pulled the ship out and they all would have collected a ton of medals.

"sacrificing the few for the many.But the Federation has never had that kind of mindset"
Oh come on! :D

"instead they’ve always adopted the “bring everyone home” ethos as per the US army." Did they ever state that??

I think I have sufficiently deconstructed your argument. ;)

PS: Here is also a video about how Mann treats his colleagues.

Can we trust a men like this? I SAY NO!!! :(
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Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 4:59pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

Well, the Dominion only attacks Federation ships. The could get contractors like the Ferengi to transport the stuff.
And about the defenses. Isn't the station at this point not already the most fortified station in the Alpha Quadrant?! This all happened after the Klingon attack and we later see that they destroy more than 50? Dominion ships when the station is finally attacked. We also learn in Purgatory's shadow that the Federation had a plan to seal the wormhole in case of invasion.
About the Jem Hadar killing themselves. it is shown that they can hear the founder die outside of the ship. They have really good hearing...

"After all, if he'd done the sensible thing and hauled the runabout to a safe spot where they could monitor the crashsite while waiting for the Defiant to turn up, no one would have died... "
That is not true. First where should they sent the runabaout to monitor the situation without being detected by the superior Dominion sensors and second the ground team would have still been attacked or do you mean hiding for a week somewhere and then getting the ship. Well then only the founder would have survived but the Dominion certainly would have destroyed the ship. The option Sisko choose is obviously superior. In the scenario you are proposing the Federation would have gained nothing and the Dominion would have gotten a founder back. In Sisko's option the Federation has lost a shuttle, two officers but gained invaluable insights into Dominion tech and a fully functional ship while the Dominion lost a squad of Jem Hadar and a founder. I'd call this a win for the feds.

If you want to nitpick then at least get your facts straight, sir! :)
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Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 4:44pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Doctor Bashir, I Presume

If you are already at the clinic why not pimp that little bugger up to 11?!
More ways to brag at parties!
The father was obviously insecure, so turning his son into a super human is quite understandable. Maybe he is a loser but he produces super children.
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Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:30am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S1: Majority Rule

The black mirror episode I mean is "Nosedive"
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Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:07am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S1: Majority Rule

- I have a shitty day. Guys *grrrr*... anyways I thought this would be a great day to watch some Orville.
- After 5 minutes I thought that I must have clicked on a bad black mirror episode (so all black mirror episodes after season 3)
- Uhh a cloaking device, did they ever use that before. Would have been useful, wouldn't it?
- "It was a dark time" I laughed. Thanks Orville.
- For a second even became interesting. Total democracy can easily devolve into mob rule (Ochlocracy).
- Does any women in the future have to wear shiny lipstick?
- Ok so this is a black mirror episode (with a happy ending)
- Lamarr (token black) is kind of a dumbass and the most "urban" person evah... maybe give him a personality that has more than 0.5 dimensions.

Apart from the popcultural references, which are still fairly annoying, it was ok.

2 1/2 upvotes.
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Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 12:38pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S5: The Inner Light

I always saw the episode as cautionary tale about global warming. Nobody else got that??
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Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 3:45am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S5: The Inner Light

I just provided a hypothesis. :)
In social science it is basically almost always tendencies not 100% this 0% that. It is a good episode because, as pointed out, Stewart is the best actor on the show and this gives him a lot of time to shine. If you want to understand acting here is a good starting point. So my point was that Stewart's performance may resonate stronger with men because Picard is such a closed of character and getting a glimpse into this human fortress of solitude is touching, more so if you can emotionally connect with that.

whoops, my bad.

What a colorful little family we are here. :)
And to you partners view. That's legit. The "it was all just a dream" fake out which this basically is can be a pretty cheap trick. Especially if it has no consequences.
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Sat, Jan 11, 2020, 5:08pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S5: The Inner Light

Don't worry. If enough people tell you that something is great there is a good chance that you will see it that as something great, too.

But you spot an interesting point. Men in western society have still problems with empathy/connecting with people emotionally which leads to loneliness on a very fundamental level. Women have far less problems with that. So maybe just having an intense emotional experience speaks less to women than to current men?

Which could mean that in some way it may be overhyped but in another way it may not be.
(full disclosure. I'm drunk and cried quite a bit without any apparent reason. Do with that information what you want.:)
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Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 2:21pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S4: Sons of Mogh

@ Fenn
This episode is pretty dumb. Think about it. At the beginning of TNG he was dishonered, then his family was reinstated and one of the most powerful families again (2368), is dishonered again(2372) and then got his titles back again and even was the best friend of the chancellor AFTER THREE YEARS.
The best thing for Kurn would have been to just put that stupid oaf into a fridge then unfreeze him and tell him you had an accident.

So now that Worf has his honor back he just ignores the fact that his memory wiped brother is running around somewhere?

This episode is one of the worst. The only redeeming quality is that little looksy we get into Klingon society.
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Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 10:36am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S1: Past Prologue


I'm going to continue until I reach this stage, at least.
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Wed, Jan 8, 2020, 4:26pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S1: Past Prologue

@ Fenn
Good points.
About the Lesbian relationship. That is always the choice when you want to have gay people but offend the least amount. It is the more timid option. In other words heterosexual women have far less problems watching homosexual women kiss than heterosexual men do with gay men. It is actually quite an interesting social phenomenon.
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Wed, Jan 8, 2020, 3:10pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S1: Past Prologue

I'm not sure if this is in and of itself not misleading. Robinson saying that he played him as gay which in that context means gay coding is a little problematic, isn't it?
While I can understand the need for representation and to have role models and so on. Is gay coding not a special form of stereotyping. Effeminate, sophisticated and so on. The only way to actually portray a gay characters would be by having the characters be in a homosexual relationship. For all we know he is asexual.
Sure they were to timid for a homosexual relationship between two men because people like dlpb were still too influential, I guess.

Murdering and torturing LGBT people for 2000 years is fine but having one gay person in a TV show is pushing leftists politics. I just hope that hatemongers like dlpb have a child which then becomes trans and marries a seven foot tall, visibly well endowed black guy who has a PhD in rocket science. *fingers crossed*
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Wed, Jan 1, 2020, 1:14pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S4: Hippocratic Oath

@ Jamie Mann

"So for O'Brien to be so utterly against Bashir's decision to assist the Jem Hadar - and to even disobey a direct order - is utterly ridiculous."
Eh, have you forgotten episode 6 from season 3? There they had a Jem Hadar child and even with all the equipment of the station they couldn't pacify that Jem Hadar. So O'Briens believe that the Jem Hadar are genetically engineered killers doesn't come from nothing.
What is ridiculous about that episode is that a Jem Hadar just produces white in his body.

" And once again, Quark somehow manages to use his magic Get Out Of Jail card despite being caught red handed with smuggled goods... "
The station is under Bajoran jurisdiction and Quark helped the Bajorans during the occupation by selling them food and meds. I think it is save to say that the Bajorans are willing to look the other way.
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Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 8:39pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S4: Suddenly Human

Yeah if people think great country they think Russia.

Always nice to see when people snap in these comment sections.
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Mon, Dec 30, 2019, 1:51am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S1: Krill

Well, I always skip the opening credits.
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Sun, Dec 29, 2019, 12:45pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S1: Krill

full disclosure. I laughed twice both times because of redbeard (still not sure about the names). Katniss Everdeen and oh that's ma new leg. Still out of place but at least it made me laugh.
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Sun, Dec 29, 2019, 12:41pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S1: Krill

This episode could work without the stupid humor. Sure, this whole mission seems like a cheaper way to kill them than a firing squad but seriously they should be discovered after the first stupid comment by redbeard.

There were a few moments when it drew me in. When they fly to the Krill ship and the music that sounds like from movie aliens plays or when they find the children but then Seth or redbeard say something stupid and I roll my eyes.

The story has of course lots of plot holes but the idea isn't bad and so is the execution apart from the jokes. I hope at some point they understand that a serious situation doesn't have to be undercut with a joke. The is not a marvel movie.

Sidenote: Who would have thought that Seth would play a character that is a better fighter in close combat than an entire special forces unit... so much for the shlubby loser.

Rating: 2 1/2 amounts of unused potential.
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Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 1:26pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S7: Thine Own Self

*cough* named...
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