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Booming
Sun, Dec 15, 2019, 5:36am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S2: Pen Pals

The prime directive has two parts. One makes sense, the other does not.
The first part is that giving species technology that is far more developed could be too much to handle for that civilization. That makes sense.
Just think about what would have happened if the Austrian Empire during the siege of Vienna would have been given an atomic bomb. Yeah Istanbul would be a pile of ash. First an foremost societies need to slowly adapt to new tech or there is a good chance of chaos. Furthermore knowing that a species is not alone can also be blowing up the structure of a society.

The second is the: "We won't do anything if a meteor hits a planet part". This is pure nonsense. Sure we don't know if down the line a saved civilization become space Nazis but the Federation doesn't know that about any less developed civilization. It is some odd notion that borders on a believe in fate.

It is in the show to create drama.
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Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 11:18am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Doctor Bashir, I Presume

@Oriza
I disagree. I think that his father should have been punished more severely and his mother, too. How many parents would engineer their children if the only consequence are 2-3 years in a Federation low security prison and it isn't even both parents. Such a federation prison is probably a nicer place than most hotels today.
The best safeguard is to deny people who are engineered any kind of post in the Federation as to not incentivize anybody who wants a better future for their unintelligent offspring. If you make a better life impossible then you eradicate the main reason for parents to engineer their kids. Simple and effective.
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Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 9:39am (UTC -6)
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

People really loved Star Wars for some reason. It is really funny to see how Disney is squeezing the last drop of milk out of that cow.
Oh capitalism, you are a heartless bitch. :D
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Tue, Dec 10, 2019, 12:19am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: What You Leave Behind

Until we meet again. Farewell Odo.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/7x25/leave_behind_633.jpg
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Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 1:05am (UTC -6)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

@ Quibbles
Hahaha. Thanks for the description. I laughed quite a bit. I hope your mother recovered and is fine and in good health. :)

Yeah sex (and violence) in American television or media in general is a topic for itself. The only thing you couldn't show in German TV in the 90s was hardcore pornography, softcore was fine after 10pm. In Europe violence is seen more as a problem, sex less so (UK being the outlier). I think that is why sex in American shows is often so awkward and often seems somewhat prude and Star Trek is no exception here. Even though DS9 was fairly relaxed there too. Jadzia and Worf were doing really rough SM and nobody seemed to mind. Curzon's stories, Quark and his porn adventures, the Risa episode where everybody was just boning away.
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Tue, Dec 3, 2019, 5:00pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

@ William B.
That one gets it. :)

@ Omicron
Sorry, too tired to react in the way your comment deserves.

"whether you're just arguing for the sake of arguing to elevate your boredom."
It's not boredom. It is worry.
This is a nice diversion and I appreciate the input of most people here. I really do and I hope none of this comes off as condescending.

"It’s fine that you think Crusher’s bland, but *the show* does presents her as intelligent and capable in more ways than just motherhood. "
That is why I at this point am able to say that I always say that TNG was fairly ahead of it's time but not much more. ;)
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Tue, Dec 3, 2019, 11:58am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

@ Chrome
It wasn't my intention to imply that mothers are either always weak or strong. I meant it more in a way that the motherly role was a pretty standardl role for women on TV back then so TNG wasn't really pushing boundaries but stayed somewhat within them.
On DS9 the fatherly role was the more prominent one. Sisko, Siskos father,O'Brien even Worf tried to undo a little of the damage he had already done. What I mean is that we didn't need a positive depiction of a motherly role. There were plenty, positive father figures on the other hand were still fairly rare.
I personally liked it a lot that DS9 was bold enough to show the captain in the parental role who was caring, warm and understanding. It provides men with more modern role model.
I hope that makes it a little clearer what I mean. Sorry English being my second language and all :(

@Jason R.
"Wesley is almost an adult when TNG starts while Alexander is a young child. Apples and oranges."
Ok, but there were quite a few younger children on the Enterprise.

"And Worf sending Alexander away was one of the biggest controversies in the show - hardly something that was just fluffed off as being okay or expected."
I did not know that but I find it also quite telling that Wesley stayed with his mother, not his father. Another absent father (before he died).
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Tue, Dec 3, 2019, 5:17am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

@Chrome
"than anything nefarious."
As mentioned I think it was more timidity than anything else. As you said the viewers liked a motherly character like Crusher. It is probably no coincidence that Crusher is the only active parent on the show, while the only father on the show (Worf) immediately sent his son away which is never really portrayed as wrong. I guess that is another reason that we not only got more stronger female leads in DS9 but also a positive portrayal of an active male parent. Let's be honest Worf kind of forked that up.

If Wes was to be the character with which the average viewer was supposed to identify (didn't work but I believe that was his original intent) then Crusher (caring, conflict free) is the mother figure and Picard is the father figure (rational, emotionally closed off) and I guess Riker is the cool uncle. So Pulaski certainly was no motherly type. Saying that the writers and the viewers didn't like her (I read the memory alpha article, too) makes sense if you see how the role of female doctor was intended (caring and motherly). I ,as others, liked Pulaski more than the rather bland Crusher character. We also should take the statements of writers and actors with a grain of salt when it comes to employment. Two grains.
We had two female characters who were classical female archetypes (caring, harmonious, warm, understanding) and two female characters who weren't and both characters who weren't following classically feminine roles only lasted one season. Coincidence? :)

" They highlight many of Crusher’s best moments and I think that’s made me realize how important she is to the show and to the fans."
But if you have to be reminded how good a character was then that character maybe wasn't really that memorable.
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Tue, Dec 3, 2019, 2:06am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

@Chrome
That is kind of my point. They weren't against stronger female roles but still a little timid which then lead to DS9 and Voyager. They could have replaced Tasha with another woman and even though according to Berman: Pulaski "never quite worked" whatever that means they could have gotten another actor with a little more spunk than mother goose Beverly. I have a hard time remembering anything about her. I would even say that she was the least memorable doctor of all star trek show including *gasp* Discovery. Your point about her saving the ship a few times. Come on... she is the chief medical officer and the show had 178 episodes. Do we have to make an analysis about how many times women saved the ship and how many times men did? And then correlate that with how many times women almost destroyed the ship?? Will this madness never end?! :D

I'll give you Guinan, though. ;)
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Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 3:00pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

@ Jason
And Whoopie Goldberg was only on the show because she really wanted to. They didn't plan that.

@Omicron
"In other words: What would be the actual *point* of such an exercise?"
More debate, silly! :D
One could argue that on one hand there are far less female leads on the show, both of them work in care work, traditionally a field dominated by women and that the writer found no other way to distinguish women as individuals then by letting them mostly (?) talk about romance. That means that TNG was not that ahead of it's time or they maybe thought that they couldn't challenge the audience much more.
I think the cast of DS9 (first officer and science officer female) and maybe even more Voyager (Captain and chief engineer female even though they kind of forked that up somewhat with Jery Ryan) are a reaction to that. In DS9 we had a black captain, a female first officer and a sudanese (Alexander Siddig's actual name is: Ṣiddīq aṭ-Ṭāhir al-Fāḍil aṣ-Ṣiddīq ʿAbd ar-Raḥman Muḥammad ʾAḥmad ʿAbd al-Karīm al-Mahdī) as chief medical officer and where did we have the first heterosexual white man. the Chief who wasn't even an officer. DS9... more like SJW99. D K was right all along! ... ... There was Admiral Ross though but have we ever seen him with a women or as Americans would say a girl?!
Case closed.

Where was I... yes...as rightfully divided as people are about Discovery a similar pattern applies. the fact that TNG, DS9 and Voyager did not feature any kind of regular lgbt character lead to the gay couple in Discovery. They of course then fell in the "kill the gays" trap then tried to rewrite that.
Barely coming back to your actual question.... phew... we would have even more evidence that the late 80s and early 90s still struggled with portraying women and so did TNG.
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Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 7:55am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

@ Omicron
Sorry this is all far too long.

I actually have a hard time remembering when men talked about matters of the heart on star trek so I just picked them but I distinctly remember an aerobics scene with Troi and Crusher which was probably named "Hey girl!" in the script.
So back to my point I meant a comparable pair of men not Riker and La Forge specifically.

"Secondly, let's say we did such a comparison between all male/male conversations and all female/female conversations that ever occured in TNG. What would it prove?"

Debatable if it "proves" anything. For once, we will not find good pairings. What male relationship is comparable to Troi's and Crusher's. How do we quantify that? Minutes Talking? Intensity of the conversation (what does intensity mean)? topics (how do we typify that?) discussed? And so and so on.
Let's say we find acceptable answers to all those questions and we actually find that women "talk romance" far more significantly often than men. Then we have to ask ourselves why do they talk more? At this point we have two diverging roads one goes down the the Film studies road and the other sociology path.

--- At this point I realize that I write all this just to not do any actual work---

So Film studies would probably go in the auteur theory or feminist theory direction. No idea.
In sociology I would maybe go with socialization and social constructivism which means that the writers grew up in a society where it is perceived as more normal for women to talk about their emotions than it is for men which in turn encouraged them to write stories that perpetuated these perceived behaviors which then creates a reality in which the viewer thinks it is normal for women to talk about their feelings while it is not normal for men to talk about them. This would then have to be contextualized like how were shows in general during that time in their portrayal of female and male conversations. (Actually the empirical part comes after theory, contextualization/problem and hypothesis )

--- The texts I have to read are actually fairly interesting for example "Voter databases, micro-targeting, and data protection law: can political parties campaign in Europe as they do in North America?". If that doesn't water your mouth then you must be crazy! Still I'm procrastinating :( ---

Well back to it, then. The last part would then be about what this could mean for society and where future research could focus on like men will be less likely to talk about their feelings with friends which lets them ignore mental instability and then not go to a psychologist leading to higher suicide rates. You know mental health is girly stuff. Or you know... whatever. :D

"What would your conclusion be this time? There's still a big difference between the numbers, but now it's in the other direction. So is that good or bad?"

The empirists have basically won the battle for the soul of the social sciences which means that sociologists and political scientists avoid making value judgements. So no good or bad. What leads from A to B. Period. Deciding what is good or bad is what philosophers and politicians are for... or this enlightened group of star trek enthusiasts. ;)

By the way, why do Americans say boys or girls when they talk about sexual relationships between adults? Creepy guys... very creepy. :)
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Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 6:42am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Profit and Lace

@ Omicron
I didn't really read through all his texts but assumed that there were other bombshell revelations about how women controlled the USA in the 1980s. :D
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Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 12:56am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Profit and Lace

Oh man just saw the other posts of D K. 13 posts in less than an hour. Pretty rough stuff. Sorry people that I answered. My mistake. I had a glass of wine
https://medias.spotern.com/spots/w640/175/175837-1547065496.jpg
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Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 4:49pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Profit and Lace

@ D K
You fail to see one important point, maybe the most important one.
This is a show created by us, not aliens.
The Ferengi aren't an alien society. They are a creation of Humans. They are created by the limits of our imagination to tell us something about ourselves.

I may be a nihilist. In a million years humanity will be gone and what constitutes my body now will have been many things, earth, food, energy and after a few billion years this organism earth will also end and every one you know and everyone you never met will be energy or some form of it so yeah what is the point of anything, still I'm not a big fan of moral relativism.
I'm actually a believer in strong principles. One of them is respect for people who are different but another is speaking my mind even if that may cause me harm.
And in some form or another a lot of Humans must share this or we would still treat women like slaves like the Ferengi do.
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Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 3:37pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

@Omicron
"You mean unlike TNG, which had plenty of women engineers and scientists and admirals and captains? "
That is obviously true. In general TNG and even TOS were better in the background than in the foreground. I never said classical care work, though. (care work is a category of work in sociology) and you are again right Bones in a way was the most progressive type on TOS. He was deeply empathetic, emotional, divorced, a humanist but also strong willed, cool under pressure, principled. He was almost a template for a positive form of modern masculinity and far from the typical men portrayed in the 60s. Men at that era were normally just strong willed, cool under pressure and principled.

"I've taken the liberty of scanning through the transcripts of every single TNG episode for such conversations, and you know what I've found? That Crusher and Ogawa had exactly two conversations on boys (in "Imaginary Friends" and "Lower Decks"). Troi and Crusher had six, which is precisely once every season (not counting season 2 where Crusher was absent)."

I would like to have a look at your method. ;) First what search terms were used or did you go through all the conversations and the really interesting comparison would be between a female and a male pair. If the percentage of romantic conversations between for example La Forge and Riker is as high as between Troy and Crusher then we really have something. If not then we would need to compare other male conversations. After that one would have to look into the topics discussed. A conversation about men could be different in content and length then a conversation about women.

Separately one could look at mixed conversations who is bringing up which topics.

I wouldn't be surprised if you find a few studies about that.
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Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 9:50am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

@ Chrome
I meant care work. These are jobs like nurses, therapists and so on. Crusher is in care work (women are often portrayed in these roles) but she is also chief medical officer so in a position of power. That is why I call TNG "fairly progressive" and not just "progressive".

@Top Hat
Well, Frakes is tall and was back then in pretty good shapes. Shatner wasn't and isn't and never will be either. The message of the episode is pretty bonkers. It kind of implies that if men would have ever encountered strong women then the patriarchy would have been over? Riker is literally boning for equality. You know people did a lot of coke back then.

The idea aka the switcheroo is ok the rest not so much.
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Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 3:01am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

@ Omicron
Sure, sometimes I don't bother writing "but it was fairly progressive for it's time". It is one of the reasons I prefer DS9. There women weren't in the classical care work roles. Kira terrorist/freedom fighter/first officer, Dax (the somewhat eye candy) science officer/wise/perv, I even liked Keiko a little while apparently anybody else hates her. Sure she was the nagging wife trope but her way back into the workforce and Miles dealing with that. I thought that was good stuff. There was Leeta... I always try to forget her. She was pretty terrible. At least she was mostly in the Ferengi episodes and who remembers those?!
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Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 4:43pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

Troy wearing a skirt or some form of outfit that is pleasing for some people has really nothing to do with a woman choosing to wear something because Marina Sirtis didn't chose to wear this. The makers of the show did. Why did they do it?
As a reminder to TOS? As eye candy? Both?

If you look at the very first shot of Troy sitting on the bridge in the very first episode of TNG it certainly seems that it is eye candy. She is sitting almost in the center of the frame which is slightly to the right and if she would move her legs just a little we could see her underwear.

And in this episode many shots with her are framed in a way that her v cut never leaves the shot. Clicking through the episode I found only one very short scene were we see Troy's face but not her cleavage. If we assume that these high paid professionals know what they are doing then that is probably not a coincidence.
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Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 8:27am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

@ Carmen
Don't worry, we all stop reading at DLPB's... opuses. :D
I must admit, though that I laughed quite a bit rereading Jammer's review.
explodes... *chuckles*
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Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 1:40am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S5: Bride of Chaotica!

@Proteus
One correction. None of the Star Trek shows are fantasy. It is science fiction which is a different genre.
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Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 1:45pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S2: The Child

I think it has become clear that what TNG needed were 15 minutes of flashbacks in every episode.

Wouldn't that have been fantastic?!

No. #deathtoflashbacks
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Mon, Nov 18, 2019, 1:28am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: For the Uniform

@P'kard
They still lost their homes. The colonists maybe 50, maybe 50000 are civilians not a military target. Even today that would be considered a war crime.
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Sun, Nov 17, 2019, 2:05am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S4: Rejoined

@dlpb
Phew, that is the Left's biggest problem?! Man, that's reassuring. I always thought it was internal dissension, inability to agree on anything, the constant desire to shot ourselves in the foot, indecisiveness, the willingness to see the humanity even in our enemies, self-destructive idealism. But a lack of self awareness. Thank you man that's great. Let me kiss you on your sweet troll forehead.
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Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 10:18am (UTC -6)
Re: TOS S1: Mudd's Women

I once promised Jammer to not react to certain behavior. In the spirit of this I will ignore Peter from now on until the end of time.
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Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 1:42am (UTC -6)
Re: TOS S1: Mudd's Women

@ Trish
I guess you are right. Maybe you would still provide a somewhat longer explanation of your view of the scene. Men tend to be more autistic and communication based on simple text can easily lead to misunderstandings. I really try to be less aggravating but obviously failed here.

I hope our little chest bumping doesn't discourage you from participating in this forum. Peter, Jason, William, Omicron, Chrome and maybe a few others we all somewhat know each other so old conflicts have a sadly a tendency to flare up in every new debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu1qa8N2ID0 ;)
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