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Booming
Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 2:45pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ Glom
Well... who isn't broken?

"but then the focus for her character is being a mother and housewife."
change mother to father and housewife to househusband? and you have Riker.
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Booming
Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 1:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ Omicron
I was messing a little with that guy/gal but to be !honest! I think it is not super smart from what I have seen. What is? Plus I haven't really seen enough to make any definitive judgement. Also I'm more in the political research realm. ;)

@Dexter
I don't think so. Sometimes when people see a show as misogynistic then I find it is more misanthropic. But here... there is Soji who, apart from her little misstep of wanting to wipe out all organic life, was portrayed as a sympathetic character. Then there is Troi, 7. Also in the other Kurtzman shows we have Cornwall (ok also a little genocidal misstep), Tilly, Georgiou and so on.
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Booming
Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 9:23am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

*extra honest answer :D
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Booming
Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 9:21am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

To be honest the stronger female leads in DS9 were one of the reasons I preferred it over TNG, same goes for BSG and I never really cared for TOS to be honest.

Andy F brought these up as an example for better shows in a healthier society. I just disagree with that assessment.

I prefer my heterosexual whites as a part of a colorful ensemble, not as the only voices. I hope you agree. :)
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Booming
Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 6:50am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Sorry Andy Friend I mostly skim through your posts.
To your mythical, identifiable broad strokes argument.

Yeah, I looked into these western shows. They all have white heterosexual male STRONG leads/heroes, one of them is always the boss of something. Well, to be fair Gunsmoke had a woman in the main cast. She was a prostitute.

Everybody can relate to those. Ok, not women (who aren't prostitutes), non- whites (as you mentioned there were Chinamen, certainly played in a very non racist way here for example at 4:40 to see how absolutely non racist the chinaman is portrayed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yofDT1hYYuU ) and LGBT people but everybody else.

The 5 Most successful shows 2010-2020:
- Game of Thrones
- The Walking Dead
- Breaking Bad
- Mad Men
- Stranger Things

All of these shows have mythical or fantastical elements with fairly broadly written characters, and with smarter I meant the quality of the writing and directing in Black mirror. One could call it artistic quality.

" with that background in sociology you claim to have."
My social science department is actually in the Top 50 world wide and our Humanities department is in the top 20. Yours is certainly good as well. :)

"What are many of your precious sociological models, if not statistical abstractions?"
I will not explain the methodology of the social sciences now.

By the way, do you have anything to say about STP or are just here to lament about the downfall of US culture?
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Booming
Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 4:02am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: A Happy Refrain

A (for the most part) standard douchy Data aka Isaac episode.
This episodes main problem is that it makes Doctor Kasidy look like an idiot. Quite a few cringe scenes.When they had sex or when she kissed his faceplate at the end. Yikes.

I don't think that the "love" story is on it's own strong enough to sustain an entire episode. In TNG they paired these Data stories with a B plot but in this basically nothing happens (Bortus mustache and a twinstar something). I guess you could say that these very minor plots are both about couplings: one humanoid coupling (Moclan) and one non humanoid coupling (stars) but maybe I'm reading too much into this. Both side stories are inconsequential.

Another problem is that Isaac cannot really emote in any way. With Data we had an actual face and he often felt more like a young person trying to understand but with Isaac we just have these two lights and and completely unfeeling behavior which makes him seem quite a bit douchier than Data ever could.

Lots of Women congregate scenes, lots of Doctor Finn is confused scenes. None of them worked for me. I guess it's nice that they are supportive but he is an unfeeling robot. The doctor is supposed to be wise but here behaves like a teenager.

The redeeming quality of the episode is that it actually improves in the old Data formula. The unfeeling robot kind of needs the doctor and they start to have a relationship. It is all a little forced (why would Isaac break up with her directly after sex; maintaining a lasting relationships as an interesting insight in Human behavior seems to have not crossed his mind) but I appreciated the effort to give us something actually new.

Man, I do not want to be in the cleaning staff. Cleaning that holodeck must be horrifying. Moclan orgies, doctor fluids... and god knows what Malloy does in his time.

Grayson has toned down the bronzing. She almost looks human. What is it with make up for women on this show?! Xelayan # 2 looks like a goth.

I hate that living bugger. I hope he has to go back to bugger planet for harassment duty.

The person who made the doctors dresses should be fired (into the sun). I laughed so hard when I saw her dress for the first date (the ensemble she wears at the end is not much better). Another laugh moment: Isaac flipping over the table.
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Booming
Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 12:21am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Sen-Sors
10000 years ago old men were sitting around the fire and saying:"You know guys, when we hunted back then, we were hunting because we loved the hunt, our hearts were really in it but these young people today, they only do it for the pelts." Approving grunts.

It is obviously nonsense. People get closer to death and that makes their outlook on life darker. So they start to tell themselves how awesome they as a group are to have a little comfort blanket. I AM STILL RELEVANT.

And slowly the younger people get sick of whatever greatest generation preceded them and that leads to: Ok Boomer.

TOS isn't super smart, for example. It's for the most part: crew approaches planet, something horrible happens, get out of something horrible, laugh. the end.

Black Mirror is a smarter show, for example and if you want non fiction then the Wire is a brilliant show almost from start to finish.

to quote from him?: "it was a much healthier society back then," That really says it all. "That is what we have lost, as we increasingly focus on the micro-level of multiple strands of individual psychology instead of the macro-level of archetype and myth." That is a very smart analysis considering that the most dominant genre right now is superheros. He is a scholar of the Humanities, you know.
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Booming
Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 1:54pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Trent
"The Soji/Romulan romance goes nowhere."
Not true! It was the classic girl meets boy, boy is spies on girl, boy uses implanted memories of girl to start genocide, boy tires to kill girl with red mist, girl punches her way through the floor to freedom story. What woman hasn't experienced that?!

This may be just the balcony Mojito talking but I think STP is maybe the greatest Star Trek show of the decade.
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Booming
Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 1:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Ok ok back then everything broad and great, today everything specific and garbage.

Noted.
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Booming
Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 7:34am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Startrekwatcher
The Expanse is not a mystery box show. The mystery box approach means that you write mysteries into a story without knowing where it will go. The Expanse is based on books. It has a central mystery but that is planned out and then executed. It is actually the opposite of the mystery box approach.
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Booming
Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 8:33am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: All the World Is Birthday Cake

The enjoyment of this episode depends on ones willingness to accept the stupid premise and the maybe even stupider solution. To the credit of the episode they at least somewhat acknowledge the imperfection of the solution at the end.

The debate about the premise and the solution is long enough so I'll skip that.

This feels very TNG-ish. Lots of ready room talk. Bureaucrat admiral not wanting to do anything. The general sense of happiness about having a first contact. It also sheds light on a few interesting points like "oppresed people sometimes accept the reasoning for their oppression."

Grayson's constant birthday talk became annoying. It's one thing when they talk about it on the ship but during their stay in Guantanamo Bay it is completely out of place. Another downside is the extremely rushed solution. Grayson and Bortus kill like 20 guards, are taken prisoner again and puff they are back on the ship. I guess we will not see this planet again. I kind of want to know what happened on the planet.

Funniest moment: "Will there be an egg?" hahahaha... ... hahahahaha
Xeleyan female #2 seems to be a better fit for the role.

They came up with alien signs/language in the hospital and the doctors were wearing brown (not white or green) and a few other things which are nice little touches.
One small thing that I really liked was that the antennas weren't shooting visible beams in the sky. In STP everything is really dumbed down when it comes to these things. So yeah I appreciated that the makers obviously thought that the audience is smart enough to understand: "Antenna on" without green light shooting into the sky.

Trent probably used his evil leftist magic to manipulate me but I kind of enjoyed it.
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Booming
Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 4:40pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

This goes under because of Macfarlane's acting. He should not do drama, he can not do drama. I once had to clean myself after spiting on my shirt because I laughed so hard about his acting (min 46:05). I think it is no coincidence that the last good episode had very little Ed in it.

The story itself. Eh... the plot is very predictable. Maybe this is a meta comment on Discovery but I fail to see what that would be. I also would like to have more world/galaxy building. TNG, DS9 and TOS used the term neutral zone to Romulans or whatever as a signal for "this is dangerous." I have no idea how the whole Krill situation is developing.

SHip attacks shuttle. Takes them to bigger ship, bigger is attacked by even bigger ship. It is better explained then STP explains random fights in space. Remember the old Romulan warbird in STP? Why was it attacking them, never explained. It just happens for no real reason so that 7 can join the team. Here they at least say something about an attack on a colony.

Well, our two loverbirds/snakes are now on the run from orks? and through shared hardship and yawn... I think it is a crude representation of a tit for tat scenario, maybe. In the end he let's her go which, I guess, will not cost him his job. I think in wartime you can actually get shot for letting a spy such as her go. Oh well. I was slightly bored because the outcome was so obvious.

The B story is surprisingly the better one. It is told in an ok way and made me laugh a few times. When Malloy channels his inner opera diva and says "Ok, this a hostile work environment." I laughed quite a bit.

On the plus side. No dick jokes, no fart jokes. This space battle locked pretty bad I thought.

While this is by no means a good episode, the tone seems to be more focused and the jokes are ok and not embarrassing which is quite an accomplishment for this show.
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Booming
Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 4:02pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Home

Well to be fair there were the two episodes in Discovery where they were on Saru's planet and on that planet with the small colony which were good, I think, both are around the same level as this. STP hasn't produced anything as good. Everybody loved Nepenthe. I didn't

Maybe you are right about the one foot approach. Maybe being hopeful and curious is so outlandish these days that you have to spice it with comedy as to make it watchable.

The thing is that this episode had barely any comedy.
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Booming
Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 12:47pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Home

This is the first good episode.

Let's start with the bad/less good.
- The music is still too dominant. 10% or 20% less would be more.
- The aliens are again too human. The Xelayans seem to be identical to Humans. A little more going into how it is to belong to such a species would have been nice.
- The cameos became a little distracting. First David Puddy from Seinfeld as trunkman, then both doctors.
- The good bye was a little too much for me but only a little.
- Trunkman. His dialog felt out of place in this more genuine episode.
- Why do their parents hate the fleet? There is a little conversation between the sisters but the arguments are a little too convoluted. Soldiers vs science? brains vs muscle? Giving a little more detail why they have a low opinion of the military would have been nice.

the okish:
- The big reveal that she would stay on the planet became clear to me pretty early.

the good - pretty much everything else
- the story itself is probably the weakest part of the good things. It is effective but a little simple and Dr. Flox is not good at doing action. I was chuckling a few times when he moved around. But the twist that the guests are evil and that this would develop into a hostage situation was well hidden, I thought and appropriately dark. Why Mercer had to come personally to tell her about the procedure and be that persistent was a little to convenient. Still an entertaining story.
- there is one scene where in the first second I thought: uh this is going to be terrible (when she is riding that animal in her dreams/remembers) but no it really worked. It was a little shocking. Interesting visuals, short enough. Yeah.
- In general the episode stayed, for the most part, away from stupid humor and I believe no fart or penis jokes which I think is a first.
- The emotional beats are effective and that was the first (and apparently the last) episode where I thought she was ok and sometimes even good. From the beginning of the show she had problems with the role. An interesting idea but not a good fit. In this episode she gets more fitting material. Turning her from wonder woman into a disabled person and dealing with the numerous problems of being sick or weak in a physical and emotional way and having to deal with disapproval was a smart choice.
- The best of the episode, I thought, was the sense of wonder. I wasn't drawn into the scenery that much for a long time in a Star Trek (adjacent) show, it almost made me want to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where no one has gone before. The best thing about the best thing. It wasn't nostalgia or anything. It was it's own beautiful phenomenon. Good job.

3 stars. Let's see what Jammer has to say.
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Booming
Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 9:32am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ Omicron
I probably should have started by reminding them of Jammer's wishes and be done with it.
Live and learn.

And when I went off the deep end six? weeks ago I was in a high pressure situation.

So are you planning on binging STP or are are you going to continue your NuTrek ban?
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Booming
Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 8:13am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

That is on purpose. When I'm in a corner then I'm at my most dangerous.

And backpeddling what? That STP is a below average show and if STP would have been the first show in the franchise then there wouldn't be a franchise? Please be more specific.

And who are they? The nagging Nancy's? The nervous Nelly's? Will they be here all week? Do you mean for more KurtzmanTrek?!
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Booming
Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 3:34am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ Andy's friend
Jammer asked us several times to keep the debates here at least about Star Trek and if possible about the episode.

Why do you feel the need to insult me personally. Somebody questions your sources and because of that you react by insulting that person a dozen times in long winding posts. Is that how people form the Humanities act?

And correct in parts of some of these fields (history for example) there is empirical study. It was hyperbole. Do you notice how I try to keep my Off-Topic posts as short as possible, even leave out stuff (like metaphysics)I would otherwise react to?
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Booming
Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 12:26am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Norris
"this sounds like you were trying to say you didn't want to continue having the debate"
I wasn't really part of the debate or had any real interest in it. I didn't read, for example, Andy's friends walls of text. I just wanted them to stop making longer and longer posts about stuff that had less and less to do with STP (They were also starting to insult each other). While doing that I noticed "the review on Metaphysics" which peaked my interest. That made me look into the other sources and then I made the fatal mistake of calling them not good for making an argument in the field of computer science. I'm sure these guys complain all the time that nowadays everybody is so easily offended while behaving exactly like that.
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Booming
Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 1:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I want to unequivocally declare that I will never again say anything bad about any kind of university or scientist. I haven't insulted anyone personally while others have called me stupid, lots of pissing metaphors (Freud anybody), idiotic, an imposter and quite a bit more.

I only questioned his sources.
While reading your emotional responses and insults I was thinking of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyEJZ9yODB8
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Booming
Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 10:44am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Ok. Does somebody else need a participation badge or are we done.
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Booming
Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 7:33am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Jason
Nods
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFopLqUk2Pk
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Booming
Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 5:09am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

pS:
And yes Andy's friend I'm aware of the fact that quality in departments varies and that universities have different research foci.
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Booming
Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 4:58am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Phew Andy's friend

I guess I triggered you mightily considering all these ad hominem attacks and plain insults. For the most part I wanted you and your AI interested buddies to find a more appropriate forum because some of you have a tendency to post walls of text that are off topic.

By the way, in India itself the Birla Institute of Technology doesn't make it into the top 10 (17 in QS and 37 (last place) in THE). If you are so focused on eastern philosophy then at least use better sources from east.

Sorry that the thought that people at elite/prestigious universities tend to be there for a reason insults you.

STAR TREK!
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Booming
Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 4:28am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@John
Sociology and Political Science are not part of the humanities but the social sciences.

" In the hard sciences, it is the research work and only the research that is important, not the name of the scientist or the university."
That really made me chuckle. That is so obviously not true on so many levels. First in sociology and political science we follow the science approach of the natural sciences which means empirical research. This is done mostly through doing sample analysis with statistical methods. And even in what a layman would call hard science there is constant name dropping. Sure frauds and bad science is discovered sooner or later but sometimes it can take quite a while.

"I suspect that might not be the case in the humanities, although it should be."
What?! Like an empirical study of laws, philosophy, literature, history??? These fields are by their very nature not empirical. Maybe you now think: "Wait, you can study the impact of laws." but that would be in the realm of the social sciences again and not humanities.

"I don't know if any of this is relevant anyway since we're talking about AI studies, which is a multidisciplinary field of which philosophy is a major part."
I don't think that there is a field called AI studies. I guess you mean A.I. research/computer science and for that philosophy is very likely not that relevant.
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Booming
Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 1:56am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Patrick
There is a rhetorical device called "authority argument" which means that you are trying to win an argument by quoting somebody who has a far deeper understanding or is an authority in his/her field without actually understanding the results. It is often used in science. For example when I write a paper then I cannot redo the entire statistical analysis or data mining process of every quoted study to be sure that there are no mistakes. So quoting these study is an authority argument. That is the reason for peer reviews.

"Not exactly, appealing to authority would be dropping names like Einstein but not explaining why Einstein was correct."
No. Even if the guys quoted here are often, I would say, third rate they still have degrees in the discussed fields which means that using quotes from them is still an argument by authority. Andy's friend used this form of argument and I just interjected that, if you wan to use an authority argument, at least use sources that are leading in their respective fields and not some guy who has probably a bigger shot at getting shot in eastern Ukraine than the Nobel Prize.

"If you cite an authority and explain the reasoning for the citation"
No. It just means. This scientist is right and therefore his/her work should not be questioned. The people here are not experts which means that if somebody quotes an associate professor even of Twiddledee University then the other people can either accept that argument or field their own authority arguments.

My problem with these discussions is visible already. Because they lack a solid foundation on which to discuss the issue there have been quite a few "you are stupid, you don't understand this" posts or "my expert says this"

They can do what they want, of course, but if they approached this logically then they would just share their individual knowledge and be done with it.
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