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Bert
Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 12:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Gerontius

Again, pure speculation. The problem is that the script makes them into whatever the script needs them to be in a certain situation. Be it highly rational or completely loony, it is sloppy writing. The Isaac protagonist is not made to be significantly different; just to be made after the genocide. Must be millions made after that event. And 'because of experiences' negates that billions of Robots already have experiences with biologicals. Or are you suggesting that literally all of the robots share the same negative experiences? That they were all subjected to pain and that no single sentient robot ever made a connection with a biological? The law of numbers would suggest otherwise. Thus the Isaac robot would in fact not have been so much different than many others.

An off switch over xxx lightyears is loony and lazy writing as well, because the outcome of the off-switch does not logically or rationally mean that they would return the robot. They could easily have picked him up. But the script needs them to go to the robot homeworld, so they use a loophole plot device.

But it is not the same as an open and automatic highway to the data core of some robot. That is just you inferring because you need to close a plot hole. And again because you want to mitigate the Isaac protagonist's actions; it is far more logical that he simply sent a report every day (or whatever) in whichever form robots would like to get such a report. But that would mean conscious action for the Isaac protagonist, collaboration, which is something that you cannot accept. Even though the goddamn robot was always very clear why it is there.
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Bert
Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 11:49am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Trent - You said:

** It's over a month after the attack. The Orville's been in dry-dock repairing. **

Right. And 30 days is enough for people to forget that wholesale death and destruction happened? What reality do you live in? How many people died? How many friends, family, lovers and co-workers died? This is an event that would create a deep crater of pain and suffering in the population. By completely ignoring this in favour of a party with all-smiles-and-cheers the show effectively dishonours their deaths. Instead of some medal party they should have had a memorial, that is what we call realistic consequences. That is what creates weight to such events: the aftermath and the dealing with pain. Instead, it's literally like nothing ever happened.

The signing of even the intent for a peace treaty is loony for the Krill. They are aggressive and see all others as completely inferior. The logical step is for them to use the power vacuum to take over. Whatever 'progressive Krill' are or what their agenda is, we don't know. Maybe they are even more aggressive. Progressive doesn't mean peaceful. It also ponders the question who these Krill are, do they represent all Krill? Or just a few? Are they even sanctioned? You see, the issue is that this only fits because the script needs it to fit, not because their actual motivations would fit. But it's all pulp sf so who cares, right?

As for the Isaac protagonist, you are living in a dream world. A world where collaborators are welcomed back with open arms, given their old spot, never go to trial, never face real consequences and every person just accepts this. Honestly man, stop dreaming. You are fed a program through the 'God' perspective, you see what happens. 99% of all other people on this ship don't, but you expect that they do and even that they all share in the 'he's actually sort of a hero' conceit. It is completely lunatic and by defending this view, what you do is to apply the 'Good Nazi' trope. Personally I think that is an insult to the many people who died on this show even if they are fictional.
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Bert
Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 11:27am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

I think it is funny that people will actively reconfigure this show when necessary to fit with their own internal message. Somehow during this entire conversation it has been determined by echolalia that Orville is now 'a 50's type pulp SF series'. And thus by classification has lease to introduce as many illogical, unrealistic or outright loony bullshit as it wants. It's not sloppy writing, no man, it's Pulp SF!

As for sending an ex-alcoholic loser to such an important event 'because they had interactions' is a good example of this. Aside from the fact that it still does not make a jot of sense because it would imply that the NONE of the diplomats ever had such interactions, you still don't send such a person to that table. It requires skills, experience and many other things; those are infinitely more valuable than a few interactions. As is evidenced by the ex-alcoholic subjecting the envoy to such shameful degradation that the Krill killing them all would be realistic. But hey, it's 50's pulp SF so it doesn't matter.

You simply cannot want to do serious subjects in a serious manner, literally screaming 'look we're serious here, we have a goddamn True Message' and then say 'we know it has more loony plot holes than a Swiss cheese but it doesn't matter because it is pulp SF that doesn't take itself seriously'. This is just running in circles trying to loop around the evident. Why is it so goddamn difficult to say it is simply not very good when the evidence it literally in front of you? You can enjoy a shitty hamburger just fine, just don't go defending that hamburger ad nauseum as the best thing ever.
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Bert
Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 11:11am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@SlackerInc

No. I did not say that YOU said it was a bonafide classic. That is what you get from reading through a very narrow negative bias. That is your issue, you make things up. And then you call me a jerk. How about that?
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Bert
Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 4:55am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

@Gil

People who can only shout infinite uncritical love about a fictional television series and come here to find others to circle jerk their love fall into the same category as self-flagellating vitriol pissing trolls. They are both extremists. Both groups are incapable of reflective thought or realistic critical analyses. Both groups share the same pathological need to find others to share their feelings with in order to uphold a certain consonant. Both groups are really sad people.

Gil, if you hate it so much that your comments are such vitriolic hatred that they turn into trolling, stop watching it. It's very simple, really. Honestly, do something worthwhile in that time like finding a cure for cancer. Or phone your parents for that little pat on the back you're so obviously looking for.
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Bert
Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 7:37pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

Some people who comment here watch this out of sheer self-flagellation. They watch it because they hate it, there is absolutely nothing that could possibly happen in an episode for them *not* to hate it. Even things they would love in *another Trek show* is skilfully bent towards hatred. Every week this cycle repeats itself. And then they go online to share their abject hatred, thinking of meeting others who do the same thing. Because nothing is more fun than shared vitriol. Let's all circle jerk the hatred. Does it make them feel good? No. No it doesn't, it is a sickness. And if it does please them to hate something to intensely and then engage in endless sharing of it, then it is called a psychopathy.

Honestly, the show has problems. Honestly, there are things I think that could be done a whole lot better. But I don't personally go around eagerly awaiting my weekly dose of flagellation and hate. I just stop watching and do something worthwhile. Like petting a puppy. Or eating cake. Or sleep. Or you know, nice things.
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Robert
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 10:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

When Kubrick depicted a cowboy riding a bomb, it was right on point because the madness of that moment in Dr. Strangelove mirrors the madness of nuclear war itself.

Unless you’re saying The Orville’s goofiness is expressing a deeper symbolic meaning like that, your analogy is not particularly convincing. Now if you were comparing The Orville to Independence Day in its audacious comedy-meets-sci-fi, I’d be right along with you.
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Bert
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 1:02pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

For drama to work there needs to be conflict that is grounded in realistic human perspective. Human because the viewers are human; so even alien drama needs to fold back there (warped or otherwise). Choices, situations, character motivations / objectives / convictions / beliefs all need to have a stable realistic base that resonates with the (shared) macro environment (from ship to society at large). And they should resonate into the next episode, and the next, etc etc. If the drama is unrealistic or ungrounded it just peters away, if the surrounding parameters are not governed by constant patterns they don't resonate. That is why even in science fiction world building is so important, it fills in the gaps and makes the show grounded in a certain perspective. Constantly flipping the script is not good world building; that is using the macro environment just as a means to suit a script instead of the other way round. A good world building platform adds spice and life to drama, it allows characters to breathe.

And ethics are just what a group of individuals decide. They are not set in stone and black and white ethics / morality is loony, there are no objective ethics or morals. What is ethical for you might be the complete opposite for someone else who belongs to a different group. That is why having whole planets and entire species conform to exactly the same basic motivations / ethics / morality / religion is dubious to put it mildly.

And if Orville had no intentions to be realistic, then it should have been a full blown comedy. Not a kid's idea of what ethics or morality is. If you want to do drama, you have to invest in it. Oversimplification is just sloppy writing, hit them over the head with a big hammer type of scripting. It doesn't make good drama, it is often pretentious or a morality play phoning home. There is no need for this at all. Good writers can make fantastic nuanced, intelligent drama.

Then again, I don't personally think that nuance is on the mind of McFarlane.
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Bert
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 6:17am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@SlackerInc - Sure man, I told you not to take it personally but you still do. That says more about you than me actually. If this episode were a bonafide classic, if the previous episodes were bonafide classics, I would be the first to say it. But you see, it isn't. It is not a Grand Revival of Great Star Trek, it is a mediocre mess built on ripping off something infinitely better. If you like it, good for you. But if you need to come to places like this to circle jerk about your love what you are really looking for is bias confirmation from others, all strengthening that need to feel it is good.

I think that I have already given ample evidence of piss poor writing. Here's another one. Why in the hell would this Union send an ex-alcoholic captain with his rag-tag crew of a third rate vessel to be their emissary to one of the most important events in their recent history? That is like a child writing these things. Because someone with life experience would say, well they send their top ambassadors and top negotiators in their flagship to start these negotiations and see them through. To get the best out of it. You see how loony this is? If you already have a) several reasons why they would do this insane thing or b) have decided it doesn't matter, what does this say about your critical evaluation skills?

And as already stated by several others, that insane 'stalling' scene. That might work in a balls to the wall comedy and I would play it even harder. But this is not comedy, this is full on Big Drama which necessitates at least a borderline level of reality. Anal probing the envoy of a species you have been at war with, who are very aggressive and you are trying to sweet talk into peace is not just loony, it makes me wonder if they are all on crack cocaine writing this shit.

But hey, I guess you don't think about those things, right?
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Bert
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 2:39am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Gerontius

Again, that is just assumption and presumption. And your statement depends on all of the robots being completely the same, 100% having the same motivation, the same aligned goals and thoughts. That is irrational. Which makes them drones, not sentient beings. Aside from very broad topics it is impossible that billions of sentient beings all reach the same conclusions about complex topics. Not even the religious indoctrinated and brainwashed do this, there are always dissenting conclusions. Hence the word schisma exists. Otherwise they might be intelligent but not sentient, there is a rather big difference there.

The robots are not rational because the script makes them so, only because it benefits the script. This show makes the robots super intelligent, super powerful, logical, super duper. Unless it needs them to be stupid, irrational or otherwise because it is needed to cascade a set of goals in the script.

I think that you could have come up with several alternative approaches to the goal the producers had in mind that would fit much better than 'big battle with robots'.

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Bert
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 2:26am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@SlackerInc

I am not insulting you or anyone, just as you are not insulting me. But the insistence that people would be fine with an alien robot collaborator on the ship, rewarded with it's old position and every access a bridge officer would have is insulting. It is insulting to all of the death and carnage that happened, it is an insult to the human condition. And yes, I find it insane that none of you would acknowledge this, that you gloss over it and just say 'he's a good nazi'. I find that insulting.
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Bert
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 2:14am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@SlackerInc

** I agree with Dave that Bert's scornful psychoanalysis is extremely offputting. **

Well why do you THINK it is so extremely off-putting for you? I did not target you personally, yet you apply the critique to yourself, thus placing yourself in the *mostly* group of people, which angers you. Reread what I actually said and then reapply it to your response. There is nothing scornful about calling something what it is, circle jerking on positive bias.
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Bert
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 2:09am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Alan Roi

It is a form of cognitive dissonance. They are using each other to align their thoughts and feelings into consonants. Deep inside they know this episode is really not very good. But they have a need and want to like it despite not feeling that way, they use opinions of others to reassert their cognition. Do it often enough and that feeling of not liking it will change into positive attitude. It often involves comparisons with other things, in this case mostly 'proper' Star Trek (TNG primarily). That is why you get people to site around a room and circle jerk praise over something, it all strengthens consonance. Makes you feel fuzzy too.

TNG was strong with the force in that regard, yes. Hammering home messages was proper drama in the '90s. But that show benefitted from better writing (well, mostly) and better actors (and some really shit ones). I don't hold this Grand Respect for TNG, in fact I think that many episodes are really 'meh' and have not ever seen them again. But at the time, I rolled into it in season 3, I thought it was the best thing ever. I'm just not really looking for nostalgia, it seems to me that is really conservative and not meshing with the Trek mindset.
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Bert
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 1:56am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@ Dave in MN

Jeez Dave, are you a snowflake? Because congratulatory pats on the back for liking this episode from others who need to have the same confirmation is what is happening here. It is a form of circle jerking, this need to share feelings to get confirmation from others just to ease discomfort. That is why critical reviews need to be either attacked vigorously or ignored and positive reviews will be 'liked'. Simple bias confirmation, nothing psychoanalytical about it.

It's actually completely in line with what you are doing. You feel like I am attacking you personally and thus you have this great emotion swelling up that makes you say things like 'well if you say this, then I am not going to read / listen to you anymore'. So, exclusion and dismissal based on hurt feelings because you come here to be confirmed in your bias that yes, this is really good. Or at least 'good'. Anything actually that does not cross the negative line.

To be honest, it's pretty sad.

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Bert
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 2:45pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Dave in MN

That's just assumptions, you project what you think is logical in your mind but the script has never shed any light on how these robots actually work. How much their mind is really a mind and not just C++ code. They are clearly sentient, so I would suggest that they would easily break the Turing test.

And you forget that the robots had interacted with biologicals before. For God knows how many years. You want to posit that none of the robots ever, of all the millions and millions, ever had any connection with the biologicals they committed genocide on? That is a preposterous idea. You see, that is the problem with these 'all individuals of this society ALL THINK THE SAME WAY' approaches. Put three humans in a room and I promise you they will disagree about things.
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Bert
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 2:36pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

*Sigh* You see, you are all just *assuming* things. Nothing is actually referred to within the constraints of the script or the story. Not in this episode nor before. Thus you are creating your own justifications, your own narratives. And that is simply indicative of sloppy writing and your compulsion to sweet talk this mess of writing. Because you really, really want to like it. The script makes it clear that the Isaac robot is an individual entity, not just a typewriter. This is by design.

As for the crew, you people are either insane or have no idea how the human mind works. Let alone: how the ALIENS think on this crew. The thought that people hold no grudges after such a goddamn traumatic event is ludicrous. It just shows that you see cool SFX and not what actually happened: MASS DEATH AND DESTRUCTION. How many crew-members killed, how many families broken, how many friends and lovers murdered? And you people think that everybody is cool with a member of an alien robot race who collaborated back there? Like nothing happened? All flowers? The intense loony idea alone makes me think you people are completely isolated from the human condition and most likely have never actually been in such situations; military or otherwise.

For the rest: you are defending shit scripting and you are injecting your assumptions where the script gives you nothing. There have been countless times the writes could have done interesting things, expand on their one-note musings, but they never do. Go to a planet and everybody is into astrology (yeah, that was dumb on TNG already). Every Krill is the same religious zealot, they are facsimiles. The laziness is why this show should have been a comedy, a balls to the wall comedy with outrageous concepts and utterly loony scripts. Could have thrown all logic out of the window.

As for these Cybermen. Their whole motivation sucks donkey balls. First they need more space, because 'this planet does not have enough computing room' or whatever. Well, 99% of the universe is planets that are not habitable for biological creatures. Take all the damn non-M class planets you want, because as AI creatures you DON'T NEED A BODY, AN ATMOSPHERE. And why the hell do you still all uniformly look like humanoids? The humanoid configuration is a biological evolution, for machine minds it is highly illogical and there would and should have been many different material manifestations. When needed, because why would an AI constantly want to drift in the material world?

That aside. They decide that because of *past deeds by one other biological species* that 1+1 = EVERY BIOLOGICAL. Ok cool. They must all die. Let's do the damn numbers. We are one planet. Let's say 10 billion robot minds? The rest of the universe is uncountably that number. So they must be completely insane, could be of course. That they want to go on an insane killing spree, a suicide mission to genocide as many biologicals as possible before an armada blanket atom bombs their planet. Could be. But my guess it is just dumb writing because that is not what the script says.

Also. Why the hell would they begin their genocide of all this way? It is a stupid plot: just send some powerful ships and kill everyone. Cool plan man. Needs a lot of things to get rolling, lot's of domino's to happen. Which the script does, you can follow each beat because it must all lead to something else. One of which is a big space battle.

Smart robots just tell the biologicals to piss off and yes, they committed genocide on their masters. Because all biologicals evidently gave all robots pain, all of them and all of the time. But you know, we don't care and you can piss off with your union. But smart robots with an uncountable intelligence would also have designed a virus that the crew of the Orville would bring home. Easy to spread amongst their primary species, but mostly dormant until activated after enough infections were effectuated. Goodbye biologicals. No need for expensive SFX. Robots win.

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Bert
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 2:07pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

Aside from the ass-kissing to this McFarlane guy, which is rather preposterous, what I am mostly seeing is people defending an episode just because they need to like it. And they come here to meet others with the same need, just echoing each other. It's also called circle jerking or cognitive dissonance.

Look at this episode. It is set just a little time after a devastating attack by an alien entity. How many thousands dead? How many crew-members? But it is just business as usual, no consequences. Where is the memorial service? For crying out loud they hold a medal ceremony but not a goddamn memorial? Talk about getting your priorities straight. But wait, they were just red-shirts so no need for that, right? They didn't reaaaaaally exist anyway. Nobody has any trauma, nobody has any scars. You could have skipped the previous episodes and not miss anything really important. Man.

And the Krill. Established as the defacto enemy of the 'Union'. Big Bad. Extremely zealous, religious extremists, aggressive. They consider all non-Krill sub-creatures. And evidently they are the single largest enemy military force the union has to deal with, which makes them either at the same military strength or larger. And these extremists would sign a goddamn peace-treaty? For ONE PLANET OF ROBOTS? WHO JUST GOT THEIR ASS KICKED? Are you insane?

Here is what they would and should have done: wait until the Union was destroyed or very nearly so by the Robots. Then sweep in and destroy the remaining robots. Two flies, one stroke. Now they are the single dominant military force and effectively they can continue with whatever purging or genocide of their own they were planning. Yeah, genocide of the sub-creatures. Remember? Of at the very least slavery, dimmi-hood if you want to make it an 'Islam parable'.

And to make matters worse, the Isaac robot is still on the damn bridge. Nothing has changed. Remember, this robot is an unknown factor. We don't even know WHY he did what he did in the previous episode, it is a robot and it's motivations are not human. Nevertheless, the military knows nothing about this robot. We only know that he collaborated with the enemy and then suddenly turned. That's it. They don't know what makes it tick. Remember, this robot could be deactivated by the other robots over many LIGHTYEARS. What the hell else can they do? Perhaps they can reformat him remotely. Who knows? But hey, let's all be nice and let this robot back at the same post as before, we're friends now.

And the crew would just accept this? After these robots killed their crewmen, most of their navy? Thousands of people? And here we have a prime example of those genocidal bastards who can continue without any punishment, any trial, any consequences, nothing. Man, talk about spitting in the face of your crew. But obviously these are *enlightened biologicals* right?

Honestly, writing this I feel that I am talking about a comedy. Then I remembered that this is now supposed to be a bonafide Big Drama.
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Bert
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 4:28am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@SlackerInc

It is not a comparison to Neelix as played but as what the character inherently is, a rather clueless but well meaning fool. The annoying bit is like the cherry on top. If this were a comedy that would be a real good angle, to have this clueless fool as the leader of a military vessel with enough 'atom bombs' to level several cities. Go for it I would say, lots of cool options.

The Isaac character isn't an anthropologist. He is a member of an alien race that has committed genocide and is contemplating committing genocide on all sentient biological life. He is on this ship to gather data about the biologicals. Perhaps he is the only one amongst millions that isn't in on the joke. Or, more logically, he is in on it and knows pretty damn well what he is doing and why. Infiltration is a highly successful method of espionage, which is why it is so damn stupid to allow an unknown factor on your military vessel as a full bridge officer.

Anthropologists embed themselves or observe in secret to learn about customs, society, interactions et al. It is a scientific effort. With the purpose of understanding. They don't commonly do this because they have a shared intention of committing genocide on those they observe. Or to weigh whether or not they should live or die.
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Bert
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 4:14am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Gerontius

What I meant to say was: there was ample time in previous episodes to establish that the Cybermen were leaning towards genocide. The Isaac character could easily have told the captain that should he be suddenly deactivated they had made their decision and that they should move with utmost care. Probably best to inform your military about their ideas as well.
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Bert
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 4:10am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Gerontius

*** "The only good Kaylon is a dead one" then Bert? ***

Come one please, I did not say this at all. I did not suggest this, don't project your emotions over what I said. You are the one who actually went with the 'Good Nazi' trope. I simply point out the madness of having a leader spitting in the face of his crewmen. Imagine yourself as a lowly engineer, you don't know what the audience knows, you only know that this robot and his people are the cause of death of thousands. Likely several of your friends are dead. How long before you and others of your crew would revolt?

Like I said before, you can only assume because the scripts do not give you this information. And your assumption goes towards the positive side ('he did not know he was already sending data! He is just an innocent puppet!'). But that is nothing more than projection. There is no indication of such.

As for your cooperation point, why? If he was a Good Nazi he could have informed the crew about the plans of his people (genocide or let them live), thereby thwarting their plan before they even arrive. He could simply not have given them the codes to the ship. He could have blown up the entire ship, thus thwarting their plan. Sacrifice of angels. But the script dictates otherwise because it needs the puppets to move in specific ways. You can almost hear the writer thinking.

The rest is just sloppy writing. It makes the Cybermen look stupid. That is the problem, when the script demands it they are way powerful, intelligent and super advanced. When the script needs them to be dumb and silly that all goes out of the window. The only reason the Prime is vulnerable is because the script dictates it, not because it is logical or within bounds of their establishment. The only reason the weapon to kill them is there is because the script wants it to be, not because it makes sense. Remove the 'kill the twerp' scene with the Prime and the whole episode resolution falters.
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Bert
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 3:47am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi

*** You've watched 6 episodes of a show you hate in a single day? I don't believe you. Especially when one of these episodes directly deals with Isaac's character and tought us quite a few things about his relationship with the crew (and specifically - with a given crewmember). ***

It's never good enough is it? I did not 'hate' this show; I found it to be extremely mediocre and flat. That is why I stopped watching after the first half season. Because why should I waste my time watching what I think is "Meh" when there are so many other things I can watch? But it's the weekend so yes I did watch the other episodes. I have to admit I skipped the intro and at some point was peeling potatoes, hope that isn't sacrilege.

But nothing what happened in those episodes actually truly builds up to an earnest character development. It does not introduce change (gradual or severe) based on dramatic narrative or shifting foundations of believe / culture / upbringing through external events. That is why you sift through them to find clues that signal actions for this episode while you should have had a clear gradient already.

But perhaps I am just really bad at 4-dimensional chess.
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Bert
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 3:31am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi

You are doing exactly what I have been saying: you are injecting your own ideas and notions where the script does not. You are in fact building your own story because the narrative does not. You are trying to make sense of things because the script does not. I don't mind because it is what we do.

But the 'Union / Federation' IS as stupid. They allowed an unknown factor on one of their military ships with access to their data, their people and their weapons. This is stupidity enough, it make no sense. If an unknown entity asks to learn more about you, then you allow them an ambassadorial post somewhere on the ground. With all the restrictions necessary for this purpose and all the freedom otherwise. This episode and previous episodes show that the unknown factor is a full bridge officer with access to every necessary system. Which makes it even stranger; if the unknown factor want to gather data / learn about you, then you put him somewhere where this is the most easy; which is in an urban area where lots of species congregate.

I understand that you would prefer the DS9 route. But the script does not dictate it nor signal it. There is no previous establishment of doubt, there is no previous establishment of changing perspectives. If the script writers had injected their previous scripts with data building the character then you would have a point. For instance, the whole notion that the Cybermen were slaves could have been named. That they had experienced pain by their masters. Clever writers would have been able to add sidelines into scripts allowing the character to make observations and question his / her own motivations and judgmental constructs. THEN it would have been earned and I would be the first to laud it.

So I can understand what you want to believe. Sure, of course, because that would make a certain sense from a basic narrative perspective. But the script does not say this. It does not ever once allude to this. Not even in the end, where they could have a scene where the character explain some of his inactions / actions. That could have been a dramatic setup, a way to open more interaction and change.

And so I find the Independence Day monicker rather fitting although that movie was designed to be completely bonkers from the get go. And if Orville had been completely bonkers I would have accepted it; in fact give me a completely bonkers Orville today.
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Robert
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 8:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

@Booming

That was a brilliant rebuttal to @Trent's exaggerations. Nothing says sophomore writer like using a proverbial bulldozer to make a sand castle. When you want your criticism to reek of unearned authority, cite to philosophers and be sure to use their most obscures references for the most dramatic effect. By the way, such philosophers' observations could be used to indict a Kubrick or a Tarkovsky; the observations speak to nothing about Discovery in particular. They only satisfy a juvenile need to make one's criticism more "worldy" than yours or mine and therefore more self-indulgent.
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Bert Beukema
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 5:55pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Gerontius

That is such a silly copout. He did not shoot them but he was collaborating with the enemy, in their ranks. He unlocked all command functions. He did nothing to prevent the killing. He did not protest but only when the script demanded it to ham-fist something home. Which incidentally means that ALL of the other Cybermen agreed, there were zero dissenting voices. Anyway, he did absolutely nothing that would indicate dissent nor any action that would prevent the proposed loony genocide plan. This character only does things when the script demands it; that is sloppy writing. That is why this 'turn-around' is not earned, it has the tiniest of foundations imaginable. And if we edit out that scene, the character would have continued aiding and abetting the Cybermen. Which again shows us that there is no actual character growth.

What you are doing is projecting your own ideas, the script does not do this. The script is sloppy, it only uses established reality when needed. If it does not benefit what the script intends it is discarded.

And I say this again: what kind of idiot asshole leader are you when you insist that a member of a genocidal robot race, who aided and abetted the murder of thousands and the destruction of their fleet, should ever be welcome on any ship? Think about your own reaction if that were to happen. It is illogical, unrealistic and essentially means that the 'leader' has preference of a killer robot over his own people. In the past captains were marooned for much less.
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Bert
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 5:43pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Dave in MN

** First off, I think you are confusing opinion with knowledge. ;) **

No, this is my opinion. I do not profess to have Godlike powers of knowledge over Orville. But I can smell sloppy writing a mile away.

** You seem flabbergasted that someone else would have a positive reception to this show, but that's what happens when you are dealing with something subjective like fictional drama. **

No. I am not flabbergasted that someone would enjoy this show. Nor am I flabbergasted that some people enjoy being whipped in a dark basement. That is wholly different from calling it a masterclass in writing equalling the best of Star Trek. And I do indeed think that it takes a certain 'switch off' to enjoy either this episode or Independence Day.

** I will say this: the high dramatic stakes of ID1&2 might not have worked for you, but the online consensus seems to suggest most people thought otherwise. **

Online consensus as in this review? The people who shout the hardest are the ones heard the best. You can see it here easily. How many posters shout infinite love and how many are actually negative? Why?

The Neelix comparison stands as a complaint to the writers who clearly stated that this guy was some sort of Super Riker. Destined for greatness. Then they give us some sort of fool, just like Neelix. A well meaning fool. And I would be completely cool with that if this were a comedy instead of trying to be hard SF. As for the other characters: where are they? Where are the well-rounded characters you speak of? Again, you can say that my expectations are too high which is a valid criticism.

I will rewatch the SFX battle. But as far as I can recall, it the same three ships in focus on every shot. I do not recall seeing any 'dreadnought' in any worthwhile engagement or as the focus of these scenes. Sure the Krill have little flyers, but that is besides the point here.
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