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Peter G.
Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 1:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S1: Dax

@ Millions,

Since this one isn't a favorite of mine I'm not exactly going to defend it against the charge that it wasn't as exciting as it could have been. This was no Measure of a Man, but should have been. That said, I think the issues brought up during the hearing were muddy enough that, like in Measure of a Man, it was really not possible for a judge to come to a positive determination in such a setting. It is a ridiculously complicated question to ask how much culpability people have without even bringing in the idea of changing bodies. Once you get the host/symbiont thing going, I really don't see how courts of law are even supposed to work. I have to admit, the prosecution's argument that a Trill murder is the perfect crime does have some sense to it, since the symbiont apparently lives on but isn't held responsible. Benjamin's argument that it's a "completely new person" may be technically true but seems philosophically weak to me.

So I agree I would have liked, at minimum, to see them all realize just how sticky this matter is. The deus ex machina is actually ok, because getting them off the hook of a decision they can't make anyhow is a reasonable way to end things. But I would have preferred more of a sense in the end that we really did think Jadzia bore some responsibility for what Curzon did. That should be the price you pay for taking on a symbiont, one which I suspect the Trills would be willing to accept even though it carries some risk.
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Millions
Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 1:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S1: Dax

2 stars at most.

The central premise is “is a trill guilty of crimes committed by a past host?” is debated, but then labelled meaningless and forgotten because the wife arrives to prove the past host was innocent. So all the courtroom drama didn’t really go anywhere...

And this episode is meant to develop Jadzia as a character, but she barely talks for the entire show.

It would have been much better if Curzon WAS guilty with Jadzia defending herself, and the situation was forced to a resolution. But instead it takes a cheap way out and we don’t really get to see Jadzia in the spotlight.
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CaptainMercer
Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 11:37am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

And what is Great is that Haveena's argument is not the only valid one. Tony Todd's character - who says that this is all a violation of their ways for a child trafficking operation, is not wrong. and the admirals talking about the diplomatic ramifications that make it more complex than even already-difficult human rights issue, seal the deal that this episode has so much depth to it, yet is not afraid to have spirited humor and adventure that this series is so great at doing
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CaptainMercer
Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 11:33am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

The series is pro woman which is why the episode "About a Girl" exists to show the value of allowing women to exist in a predominently male society. But "Sanctuary" brings up some of the reasons (including mutilation) this is important.. andyou should KNOW these are the themes that STAR TREK is all about.. that's the POINT. Haveena said below (BTW one of my favorite female characters now)
It is with hope and pride
that I stand here today
as a voice for those who
have been voiceless for so long.
It is true that we have been
living in exile,
outside of the laws
of our native planet,
but to do otherwise
would invite persecution, mutilation
and even extinction.
If our plea to be recognized
as an independent state fails,
I fear that our voices
will be silenced forever.
As I look upon all
of the exquisite diversity
in this great hall,
I am reminded
that most of us share
something in common.
Over the course of history,
there have been people
on nearly every planet who were,
at one time or another, oppressed...
by those who were stronger...
or greater in numbers...
for reasons that now seem
insignificant to us.
The history of moral progress
can be measured by the expansion
of fundamental rights
to those who have been denied them.
We ask only to be included
in that expanding circle of justice.

I'm sorry. but this is what STAR TREK is all about.. this episode is the best Star Trek episode to have come out in YEARS, and it doesn't matter if it has the IP and logo attached to it. This is Star Trek story that all the series have been dancing around doing and never quite did it.
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Booming
Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 11:02am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

@Mercers

Still all this would mean tens of thousands of operations every day. Let's just agree that Star Trek had it's logic gaps and the Orville often is a few steps less sophisticated. It is probably better to not overanalyze this. I also find the message slightly confusing.
Suppressing women is bad?
Forced sex change is bad?
refugees something??
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CaptainMercer
Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 8:26am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

@ Boomer Because of the environment of the planet and the pollution I believe the society is still mostly male.. maybe as much as 85%
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MercerCreate
Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 8:16am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

@Booming

I would say that your hypothetical is flawed because most Moclans born are actually male. And that is ok because with eggs they can still reproduce. What I'm saying is that the government of Moclus has been lying in order to make it seem like the society is ALL male.. or very much as close to it as possible, releasing figures as stated in the cold open of S1E3 that there is a female born once every 75 years.. and they gotta do this for a reason.. and that is because they know that the chances of a female being born is actually greater.. not 50% like it is here, but greater.. and we have no idea what kind of lifestyle the citizens have but we get the impression form the industrialized society, and harsh conditions that not only are the citizens used to a tighter leash from the government but they believe that it makes sense for only males to be born in this society. So Haveena said that there are more females born than the government will admit, that doens't mean 50%. It also doesn't mean that Moclans that brood their eggs on Moclus would have this process more closely monitored on the homeworld, and and maybe there are ways for the doctors to tell before it hatches if it is female.. or even if a female hatches and it IS a female they people are simply told (indoctrinated) with the belief that this is a terrible defect with their child and the "unspecified" correction procedure conducted by the state will assure normalcy. The secret was impossible to keep, as we have seen.. but it was kept for a while as the stigma behind having females was so strong (think about Christianity here and its stigmas) and think about the fact that the society probably wanted its citizens to test the egg itself regularly and if the eggs have some kind of small genetic "abnormality' then a doctor would come in and fix it (that abnormality would indicate that it would eventually hatch as female). See a government can control a society not through force but through stigma and belief. Haveena had been working this problem for some time making a dozen trips to the Sanctuary, creating her own version of an underground railroad, yet the population of the Sanctuary is rather small.

I think it's not perfect, but as a kind of 90s Trek kind of story.. it holds up pretty well .. and i'm glad this and other Orville episodes have so much substance without being heavy handed. This show is a gift
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Booming
Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 6:43am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

@Mercer
I have watched the presi debate yesterday and might still feel a little dizzy but are you saying that they kept a tight lid on the secret that around 50%? of society undergoes a sex change? Here I can make the standard sentence about conspiracies: "Too complex to be kept secret"
What would that mean:
- A gigantic amount of sexchange operations. Let's say the Moclans have around as many people and offspring as Humans today. That would mean 130 million children ergo 65 million sex changes per year or around 178.000 per day.
- There would be hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of doctors and nurses involved. They would all know the truth.
- It seems like the people who had a sex change all know it and they also occasionally talk about it. Does nobody ever wonder:" Man/Woman I constantly meet other former women?!!"
- The societal costs must be endless. The doctors and nurses, die administration, materials, facilities. These cost would be gigantic. So everybody involved with the Moclan budget would also know.
- Why would a society even start with all this considering the gigantic costs. There must have been a gigantic effort by the state to start all this. Again it's almost 200000 operations a day!!!

And so on and so on. A "secret" like this would be impossible to keep.
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Tannhaeuser
Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 5:16am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S3: Sacred Ground

This thing puts the usual science vs. religion debate on its head. I usually ignore the technobbable as a plot device to get the writer through some impossible dilemma.

However here the theme is to pit "science" in the form of technobbable directly against the "spiritual". The only reason I (or rather my unconscious mind) find the "spiritual" non-explanation more convincing is because the "scientific" technobbable sounds even more ridiculous, as usual.
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Davidw
Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 1:15am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S6: His Way

This episode would have been fine before odo's betrayal and the other episode children of time I think you called it.

Not great but fine. Darren is great.

but coming after those episodes it just violates what we know about their chemistry and history and so is not a good episode.
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spinalatte
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 11:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S6: One Small Step

Pretty good. Pretty much everything is been covered. Chakotay suddenly has a strong hobby, Seven still is critical of humans being humans, another shuttle mission mishap, a ticking clock. All in all, entertaining, but Inwould
Max it out at 3 stars.
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Pambo
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 11:01pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S3: False Profits

Just watched this episode. Chakotay would have been justified in taking command of Voyager after Janeway's bumbling here. They had a ripe opportunity to get home and she blew it again.
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CaptainMercer
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 10:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

@Boomer
"What rules does the Union have? MacMercer makes the argument that if they don't protect the women then what are they fighting for but they let Moclans join and those guys made no real secret out of their sex changing ways."

Did you watch the series of the episode?
EVERYONE was told that the Moclans were an all-male species. That the chances of being female were infinitely small. That's what the government of Moclans had everyone believe, even their own people. In that rare instance where a female is born born once every 75 years and in that case they alter them. I would not call that "no real secret"
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Snootybaronet
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 6:47pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Chain of Command, Part I

Captain Jellico really shines and shows how the lax, intergalactic pleasure cruise style of Picard is an embarrassment to the Federation. It's surreal that the flagship would be so unprepared.
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Jeffrey Jakucyk
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 3:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S3: The Offspring

"Why the hell is it any business of Starfleet to remove a child from their parent?"

I think Starfleet's argument would be that she's not a "child" she's an invention/creation. That's why Picard was so flustered by Data in their first meeting in his ready room. Data looks at Lal as a child, as if he has procreated, and he likens Lal to any child birthed by a member of the crew. The difference is that giving birth to children is an innate part of a human's nature. The same cannot be said for Data. He may have the desire, and the ability to build another android like himself, but that doesn't automatically make Lal his child. The implication of Lal's creation that Picard finds so dismaying is the fact that it's so difficult to do and not something that happens naturally. Yet now that Lal exists, and she's both sentient and sapient, her rights become a factor, but they're still quite tentative.

This is where Picard takes something of a 180. Because Lal is a thinking intelligent being, her rights must be respected. Data thinks of Lal as his child, which is made more plausible given that he transferred his thoughts to her, so even if Picard considers that's irrational or sentimental, he must respect those beliefs and do what he can to protect them. Lal is not the property of Starfleet any more than Data is, and that's what Picard is trying to convey to Haftel when he references The Measure of a Man. While that case did not establish whether Data is a person, or necessarily even sentient, it did establish that he's not the property of Starfleet, and he has the freedom to make choices on his own behalf. If Lal does not want to be separated from Data she should not be compelled to.

We as viewers, having spent so much time with Data already, are perhaps too quick to relate to him and take his side. This episode shows us that Starfleet's position is wrong, but considering how uncharted this territory is, I don't think they came into it from a position of malice or bigotry, because they looked at her as an invention, not procreation.
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Mpondaj
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 3:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Ship in a Bottle

Cheers William B. On your point, I had a further thought that perhaps, initially, Moriarty gave it a go to see if the crew really could get him off the holodeck. If it worked, great, if not, he had at least tried and coincidentally, ended up with a load of new experiences to explore. Life, if you will, for a holodeck character.
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Moretakitty
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 2:38pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: Unnatural Selection

Here's an interesting note.

The "child" in this episode is Dr. George Baxter who is a doctor of nursing now. He was my nurse practioner in Seattle so it has always been odd for me while watching this episode. I believe he has his own practice now, but I am not familiar with his current practice.
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James G
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 12:07pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Relics

A good one, despite its faults. A nice, sentimental diversion. I think the Scotty character is possibly a little overcooked at times in this one but the conceit that allows us to see him 75 years after his time is quite clever.

The Dyson Sphere story that is a background to all of this is also quite original, and builds the suspense nicely toward the conclusion, with the Enterprise trapped.

Odd though that a 75 year old ship can hold the doors open with its shields, when the Starfleet flagship can't punch a hole through them. I suppose the difference between material strength and motor strength.

The dialogue between Data and Scotty about the Aldebaran whisky is priceless. "It is .. green".

The reference implying that Kirk was still alive in Scotty's present day - he's on his way to retirement - is unfortunate.

When we see Scotty's ship on the surface of the sphere, it looks curved, even up relatively close. Yes, sphere surfaces are curved, but this particular sphere would be millions of times flatter than the surface of the Earth.

The ending is a bit weird - he's just going off into the unknown in a shuttlecraft? It would make more sense to return him to his own time, but he doesn't seem that bothered to have been flung 75 years into the future.

This is a general observation about TOS + movies vs TNG but when you think about it, the technology and culture isn't really all that different between them. There's a lot in the present day (2020 as I type) that would seem extremely alien to people in the 1940s, but we never really get a sense of that in Star Trek.

The scene where the Enterprise escapes through the closing doors sideways is real class - proper entertainment.

Anyway - self-indulgent maybe, a bit overly sentimental for some perhaps, but I liked this one a lot.
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William B
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 11:50am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Ship in a Bottle

@Mpondaj, I like that theory. I'm not sure it entirely fits (e.g. I think Moriarty would have been able to provide the illusion for the Countess without needing to trap Picard et al., if he knew it was an illusion), but it's something to think about.
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Mpondaj
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 11:20am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Ship in a Bottle

Summary - it's about reality and fiction and knowing which is which and when it's time to get back to the real world:

Moriarty's chat with Barclay -"Tell me lieutenant, if you loved a woman such as this, would you be content to leave her on the holodeck?". Moriarty's been trapped on the holodeck for 4 years - he knows EXACTLY what Barclay's been up to in there.

The ending - Moriarty knows he's still on the holodeck. I just can't see him falling for the same trick he pulled on the crew. I think he just wanted to give the countess "life" by letting her think they'd escaped to the real world. If my theory is correct, then in a way, he did become more than his original programming by releasing the crew and going against the evil character he was originally written to be. 4 stars.
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Mpondaj
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 9:38am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Sub Rosa

This is total crap. As Arnold Rimmer might have said " I consider it an insult to my buttocks that I had to sit and watch that". I could have gone with the "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" hooky Gothic stuff but it's the fact that senior members of the crew suddenly become complete imbeciles that annoys me (and my buttocks). Troi is ok with someone getting off on their grandmother's porn diary, Picard let's Bev resign and beam off the ship while dressed in tweed. Nobody listens to Groundskeeper "Dinnae goo to the hoose lass, and dinnae light the candle!!" Willie. Man this was bad. Makes ST:Ent look like Shakespeare.
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Mpondaj
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 9:02am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S1: Mad Idolatry

As Norvo said - this is a mish-mash of TNG's Who Watches the Watchers, DS9's Meridian and Voyager's Blink of an Eye. And it doesn't hold a candle to any of them. Considering WWTW was made 30 years ago that is damning. Move along - nothing to see here.
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Daya
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 5:50am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Lasting Impressions

In the final scene, Laura was going to bury her phone the subsequent week. This means that the computer's ability to, and need to "interpolate" would have ended, since the data available in the timeline would have ended. Assuming the computer could "extrapolate" from there, character-Laura would gain more free will to deviate from real-Laura's script. This means Gordon would have a real chance, just one week in the future of where the simulation was.

But would such an extrapolation be as realistic as the interpolation that the computer created here? Or would the character become repetitive due to a lack of new information to mine? Was the so-realistic-you-could-fall-in-love-with-it effect basically because it was a recording? Like falling in love with a character in a book or a movie? Or was it a real person?
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Mal
Tue, Sep 29, 2020, 3:51am (UTC -5)
Re: ANDR S1: The Devil Take the Hindmost

2001 Andromeda: this is the Way.
2020 The Mandalorian: this is the Way.

1969 Frankie Blue Eyes: I did it my way.

There was a brief flicker of time in 2001 when Farscape and Andromeda - not Star Trek, were the thinking man's scifi.
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P'kard
Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 11:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S3: The Offspring

Why the hell is it any business of Starfleet to remove a child from their parent? If Geordi had a kid would Starfleet take them away because he's blind? B.S. amazing how dystopian the Federation is
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