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Elliott
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 4:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The House of Quark

@Robert:

In full agreement. I'm an anti-theist, but I'm way more bothered by the mandatory pledge of allegiance and the fact that kids have to endure "active shooter drills" now than the idea a Christmas pageant or whatever.

Behind the scenes stuff reveals that the producers/actors/writers really did want to show a more sexually-diverse 24th century. Robinson explicitly played Garak as pansexual in the early seasons. Roddenberry instructed Behr to depict Risa as a kind of "Justice" planet redux, with homosexual and bisexual orgies happening all over the place in "Captain's Holiday"--not convinced that would make for good television any more than the existing Risa eps, but it certainly would have been less boring than what we got. They even filmed some same-sex couples in "The Offspring" which were removed from the re-shoots for broadcast.

Nice to see you back in the threads. Hope your little one is feeling better.
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Robert
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 3:52pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The House of Quark

@Elliott - Well, the ubiquity of Christmas stuff can be a bit much when you aren't Catholic I think. Can make everyone else feel "othered". Some people want to get rid of Christmas/Halloween/etc. in schools (to use an example) to remove this "othered" feeling. I personally would rather do the opposite and celebrate everything.

But ya.... everything does go out of it's way to make everyone heterosexual. I'll agree with you there. I mean, it took me a long time to notice because I'm straight, but I think I agree.

Garak was made straight even though his relationship with Ziyal was bizarrely unnecessary. Any time fans think a character might be gay they seem to hook up with a woman. Even thought the option to leave it ambiguous is fine.
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Robert Faulkner
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 3:45pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

@Chrome

I don't know if the writers intended that, but I do like that reading of it. Truthfully I don't think the writers intended it to be icky at all, but the ages are problematic. It might have worked better if she was 18. Older, more mature from being on her own, but not so old that we worry about Jake's ability to consent. I really don't think it would have changed the story at all if she was a drop younger.
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Naija Girl
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 3:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S5: Course: Oblivion

Sci-fi sadism!!! So disappointing and illogical. I wish I could unwatch this episode. This is enough for me to stop watching Voyager for a few weeks!
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Elliott
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 3:21pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

@Peter G

"This strikes me as being a very recent and - in my opinion - shaky turn of events, to throw around words like "child abuse" and "rape" when dealing with relations between people who are both of legal age to have 'relations' (which may include various things)."

Just curious, where are from? I don't know of any place in the developed world where a 16-year-old can consent to sex with a 20-year-old. In many places, teenagers can consent to sex with *each other*, but that's a different issue.

"You can say what you want about the result, but there's no way it's sexist to reverse gender stereotypes and show the reverse situation as they did here."

Okay, so you read the stereotype being flipped here as the "younger girl with over-protective daughter dates older guy" trope. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the writers' intention, but the reality is, regardless of which gender(s) either party is, it's fucking illegal. I'll level with you, when I was 15, I fell in love with a guy who was 19. Although my teenaged self was sure at the time that I managed to hide the relationship from my parents (for various reasons, as you can imagine), my mother is no fool. He dumped me, and I later found out that my mother sat him down and told him that she would be happy to support us being together once i had matured if that's what we both wanted, but in the moment, if he didn't break things off with me, she was going to inform the police. For me, this was adolescent heartbreak, which of course I got over. For the other guy, it was a wakeup call to be mindful of the burdens of being a young adult. And for my mother, she found a way to keep me safe without alienating me.

This is the heart of the issue, but it is furthered soured for me in this episode, because of comments like O'Brien's which clearly convey a sense of envy or admiration for teenaged Jake getting it on with someone who is an adult entertainer. Obviously, most straight teenaged boys would *fantasise* about such a situation, but having adults condone it is another matter. It's irresponsible at best.

Everybody is different. I don't preclude the possibility of Jake and Mardah being appropriate for each other, but the onus is on the episode to pass some very high thresholds to prove it. Mardah lives on her own. She supports herself. Her mature insight into Jake's character is part of what makes Sisko like her. Jake is still doing the 24th century equivalent of working at a fast-food restaurant (for God knows what reason). I find it very weird that you would seek to justify this relationship based on the idea that some men in their 30s and 40s have the sexual maturity of children. All that proves is that our society is still too tolerant of abusive, un-evolved behaviour, not that we should be *lowering* the bar.

**

As an aside: the scripts I'm following list her name as "Mardah," but I noticed most of you (and Jammer) spelling it "Marta." Not sure whence this discrepancy.
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NCC-1701-Z
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 3:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Not directly related to the movie but an interesting development, I think Jammer wrote about the possibility of Star Wars over saturation on his blog at one point and this seems to acknowledge that.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/20/17882574/disney-ceo-bob-iger-star-wars-franchise-slowdown

Thoughts?
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Elliott
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 2:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The House of Quark

@Jason R

That's not a fair analogy. The ubiquity of Christmas Carols does not exclude the existence of Jewish people. Seeing heterosexual people in relationships does not exclude the existence of other sexualities. That's not the point. When media goes out of its way to erase you (like insisting that a fucking dog in a kids' movie is definitely not gay), that's making a statement. Trek is a great example of this, in positive and negative ways--there are no Christians or Jews or Muslims in the 24th century. This is a deliberate statement. Likewise, there are no queer people in the future. Depending on whom you ask, either or both of these are upsetting
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Cinnamon
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 2:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: Turnabout Intruder

This ep is awful. It proves how little men thought of women.
They believed women were only good for one thing. Hence, the revealing outfits, only the big busted girls were hired, and they had to show what they had.

As a rule, females did not run around with everything hanging out, the boys wanted to look up skirts and such filth, not like today. We had to be clean and protect ourselves or be branded. There was free sex as it was called, but it was not advertised.

You people don't understand the past. Women were treated as inferior dumb clucks. The male animal believed that a woman should be IN THE KITCHEN, BAREFOOT, AND PREGNANT their entire lives. I was there. However, I was not one of the gooses that laid around and obeyed sexist males!!!!!!! Screw them all!!

I still think that way and I am 76 years old. I don't need men.

Roddenberry was a womanizer with that old-fashioned kick a female around but when he got Majel in his hooks, she did not unhook and slip into the darkness of a liquor bottle. She stayed because in those days, you F..K me, you marry me. It was not like today. In those days the girl did not suck off the boys cause "it ain't sex, you slut".

Shatner's first wife divorced him due his not keeping it in his pants and he was zokcd;xx@((( a young dancer at the studio. In his first book he stated that he did not want the divorce. I can't remember the Scotty actor's name off hand, but on one of discs in the TOS eps he discusses Shatner, and he says......."he is not a nice man...". The entire main cast felt that way because I listened to many interviews with them while Shatner was discussed during the Star Trek cast interviews.










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Filip
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 2:20pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Suddenly Human

Here's a thought: if you send out distress calls and then rig your ships to self-destruct when aided , don't really expect anyone to come help you when you really need it.
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Cinnamon
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 1:37pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Assignment

POINTLESS!!!!!!!! A pah-wraith grabs Keiko .... so why didn't one grab Kai Winn in the last ep of series??????

It is no wonder that Keiko got grabbed, she is a hateful character and she was the same way in TNG. Rosalind plays the "bitch" very well. I always feel sorry for O'Brien because he should not married Keiko as they are not suited for each other. I guess he likes misery and being shamed in public.

Poor Rom. I cringe every time he is on because he is abused so badly. I'll never understand why those sh*t writers wrote him to be the "oh yeah, come stomp my face off" type......

I would hate to be an actress and the only job I could qualify for would be Keiko and Rom where I would be the fool of the night broadcast.

The first time I saw Max G. he was a magical character that turned into a bird and flew away in SLIDERS.







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Cinnamon
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:21pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: Code of Honor

This is another sorry ep. If I had been the lady-scorned, I'd have sent Lutan to the slave market in order to teach his big, fat self a lesson in loyalty!!

I found this piece of crap to be insulting to both white and black people.

Speaking of Yar, the way she treated so far in the series of TNG, could have been the reason she wanted out of the damn thing and place. Denise was probably treated badly on the set and around the studio. Of course, Sirtis could have done any number of things to be ugly to the Yar character as she had been invited by Majel Roddenberry to live with them since she was in the USA all alone and broke by the time she landed the role of Troi. It is very easy to spot how people are treated by watching the expressions whoever they have to play off in scenes. Try it if you don't believe me. As a matter of fact, I never liked Sirtis, she is not a good actress and until a couple of years I could not figure out her heritage.....she is Greek. But she doesn't actually look Greek. She is probably Jewish-Greek which is what you HAVE to be in Hollywood if you want to be an actor.

Take that as racist if you want to but you will be making mistake to think that way because the truth is the truth.





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Peter G.
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 11:58am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S3: Evolution

I haven't watched this one for years as it's usually a "skip" episode for me. I remember the plot as basically being boring to me, and having just rewatched it I more or less still feel that way. One positive note in the episode is the unusual musical score, which is a pleasant reminder of the days before TNG's music became musak.

But the most shocking thing to me watching Dr. Crusher's return to the series for the first time in a long while, and oh man it is so bad. I had always remembered that her return was more or less as unceremonious as her departure had been, but they definitely did make some attempt to giver her a B story in this episode regarding Wesley in order to welcome her back. It's too bad that the B-story is horrible to watch, mostly consisting of her condescending to Wesley (which unfortunately became a theme in the series) and then acting out tired "worried mother" tropes. But all of that could be chalked up to hack writing and the misguided idea to pidgeonhole her into "mother" as her defining trait. By far the worse part of it is her performance. I seldom care about exactly how good the performances are in TNG; usually guest actors and the main cast are at least passable, and occasionally they rise up to real excellence. This is a rare case of just outright bad, terribly bad acting, where McFadden's line readings are so artificial with bizarre cadence that it's actually upsetting to see someone like this working on a serious project. Luckily she did get better over the years, which I think is a credit to the idea that giving someone a chance can help them artistically. But at this point she's not even at the level of a decent acting school student, because at least they usually know how to speak like people. Check out Crusher's last scene with Guinan and cringe. Even Whoopi doesn't know how to interact with her here, and she's the most natural person probably in the entire series, along maybe with O'Brien.

My complaint isn't so much a condemnation of the episode, so much as a reflection that watching this made me embarassed *for* McFadden. It really looked like a humiliation to be taken back onto the show after so much fan requesting, only to look this bad. Others have pointed out elsewhere the 'dancer's gait' where she can't help but walk like a dancer (a trait I've observed IRL many times, and yes, they rarely can learn how to walk normally), but it's saddening to think that I probably agree with Maurice Hurley that she was a detriment to the show at the time of her firing. It would have been nice to have fostered her instead of jettisoning her, but at the same time there are too many good people in the industry to have an attitude of taking on people who aren't up to the job to try to improve them. This was more an issue with the original casting process, I guess, and after that they were stuck (something I think is also true of Voyager for a few of their actors).

Later on in the series I actually do begin to like Crusher to an extent, and Remember Me is one of my preferred eps, but boy did it start off rocky for her.
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Cinnamon
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 11:33am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: The Naked Now

I Hate this ep! Not one actor was up to par in their acting in this ridiculous story. Drunk people do not act like these actors who were all trying to act drunk. Can you imagine having sex with a robot? Data probably weighs two thousands pounds at that and I think in some ep they tell his weight along with other details.

I just read a tidbit about the Yar character yesterday and there was a person who did not know why Denise left the series. She and Roddenberry both said she wanted to do movies. She was offered a part and took it in PET SEMETARY and she did a few more movies that were forgettable. She made the rounds on various t.v. shows and so on. But when she was on talk shows she would always tell how she was the illegitimate daughter of one of Bing Crosby's sons of which I no longer recall his name. That sort of thing could ruin a person as far as the Hollywood crowd goes. Shove it down the throats of those who don't like you. Gene R himself sheepishly said he wished he had not let her go and he said the same thing about Grace Lee Whitney who by the way died in 2015.

Let me add this piece: In the same area where I found the above (Yar) I also found this about Jennifer Lien (Kes)....someone in the know said that Jerry Taylor who is the mother of Alexander Enberg (Vorik) approached Jennifer to date her son (Enberg) and Jennifer would not do it. That took place just before her final ep, the Gift. >> And Enberg, in his early forties, had a stroke and was in a coma for a short while.

Back to NAKED NOW. TOS'S Scotty actor did not like this episode either. He said how he and others figured TNG would not make it and guess what(?)... way down the line he appears on the show and has to be "beaten" up mentally by Geordi LaForge! That makes me angry enough to bite nails in half every time I watch it. For a long while I hated Geordi. He was very overblown egotistically and it showed.




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Rahul
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:00am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Dark Page

Wholeheartedly agree with Jammer saying: "I guess the lesson of 'Dark Page' is that some storytelling stones are better left unturned." Lwaxana has generally been an annoying character (a shame given who the actress playing her is) so why should we care about her backstory when it doesn't even seem to have much lasting significance for Troi? I guess the episode brings them closer in the end.

Also what sucks is this episode is so similar to "Phantasms" -- the immediately preceding episode -- (bizarre dream/meta-conscious visions, a cast member entering the vision to solve a mystery etc.) I didn't like "Phantasms" and I like "Dark Page" even less. The TNG show-runners weren't on their toes when planning out Season 7, a below-average TNG season (show-runners probably coasting at this stage, resting on past glories).

One good thing is that Lwaxana isn't really annoying here in the sense that she's not on some sexual hormone overload and chasing after Picard/Riker. I thought she portrayed her grief well and part with Troi helping her come to terms with the tragedy was reasonably well done. But still, it's hard to care about it. The story dragged on too long with what the big tragedy/mysterious event could be.

What didn't work for me was the Cairn leader and his telepathic joining. Ridiculous to watch his stupid stare. So they tried to make it difficult for him to speak , which is accurate enough, however it really was frustrating to watch and killed any flow.

As for how Deanna's older sister died -- I assume the dog dragged her into the pond and she drowned. Lwaxana first passes out when the little alien girl went in the water in the arboretum on the Enterprise. I suppose there are some clues etc. to piece together here and there but the exercise is not worth it. The end tragedy for Lwaxana is understandably difficult to deal with / traumatizing but the episode was just difficult to get through.

1.5 stars for "Dark Page" -- definitely a weak episode but not a terrible one. Somewhat arbitrary with how the mental anguish manifests in the Betazoid that is Lwaxana (the sci-fi element) but with some hand-waving can be a commentary on a personal human trauma. Not an episode I'd go back to re-watch -- my enjoyment of it is commensurate with a 1-star episode.
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Springy
Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 11:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S4: Message in a Bottle

Really fun, while still managing to bring a year to my eye at the end.

A nice "first real contact" with home. Brilliant and creatively conceived.

Ok. I'm caught up. Must go to bed now. Good night, don't let the bed bugs bite, Trekkers.
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Springy
Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 11:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S4: Waking Moments

Oh, I loved this one, if only because I have such a time with dreams. I've had lucid dreams quite a lot of times (though I don't do anything to induced them), and I've also, many times, experienced the phenomenon of thinking I had woken up only to realize I'm still asleep - and how really horrible that is. Never saw it portrayed like this though, and I was riveted.

It was well done and I wasn't surprised at all when we learned Chakotay was still dreaming. We got subtle cues, but because of the numerous times I've been through this in my own sleep, the times I've struggled so much to wake up and to feel certain I was awake (it is awful, I mean awful), I picked up on it right away.

Years ago, I used to experience this so often that I, too, developed insomnia for awhile. I hated to go to sleep for fear of it. It's plain to me the writer had some experience with this also, and got every note right.

Spooky and affecting. I haven't had a "can't wake up, please let me wake up, let me really be awake this time" dream experience in a long time now, though this ep makes me anxious. Because it's almost bedtime.

Sleep tight, Springy. :)

In general an exploration of Reality - what is it, how do we know it, can we ever really be sure enough?
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Springy
Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 10:52pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S4: Mortal Coil

The afterlife wasn't as Neelix expected and he's upset. An interesting set up for exploring the concept of Death, and the importance of living in the present.

It seems one of the main reasons Neelix was managing to stay alive was because he knew day it would be over and he'd see his lost loved ones again.

Now, he's not so sure, so he has to find enough purpose in the present to continue you want to live. Young Naomi helps. He's needed. He has a purpose in this life that isn't related to, or dependant on, the existence of an afterlife.

The ep gives us no answers about the afterlife, which is good. No preachy stuff, just an exploration, which VOY often seems to do so much better than TOS, ENT, or TNG (haven't seen enough DS9 yet).

Well done.
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Springy
Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 10:40pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S4: Concerning Flight

Loved it, one I would watch again, if only to listen to Janeway say what my Italian mama used to say when she finally had all us kids ready to go: Andiamo!

Just really fun and an original way to get a Holodeck character out into the world. Some funny lines and really great scene with Leonardo and Katherine flying.

Lovely. A four star for me.
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Springy
Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 10:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S4: Random Thoughts

A good one, relatively standard fare, though. The literal thought police!

Ep seems to be making a statement about censorship and repression, as in: Must be done, but with intelligence and moderation and vigilance.

Didn't really grab me, though.
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Springy
Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 10:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S4: Year of Hell, Part II

Not as good as part 1, but good.

I liked the way it played out. Of course it had to reset, a given in this sort of tale, but I was pleased and surprised by the method of reset, from Janeway's sacrifice to Annorax's very fresh start.
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Peter G.
Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 9:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

I can't say the point about the age difference between Marta and Jake should be ignored, however I think this is a bridge too far:

"there is absolutely no excuse for condoning what is, in a very real sense, child-abuse on Mardah's part."

This strikes me as being a very recent and - in my opinion - shaky turn of events, to throw around words like "child abuse" and "rape" when dealing with relations between people who are both of legal age to have 'relations' (which may include various things). While I would admit to having concerns about a daughter (or son) of mine dating someone four years older, at the same time this is a dicey issue because it also depends on what sort of courtship this is. Are we talking about meeting in public and getting to know each other? Or are we talking about getting high and getting it on? And this isn't a trivial matter because some of these concerns may involve leveraging experience against someone too young and naive to protect themselves. But on the other hand it surely cannot be out of the question that people of four years age difference may really be right for each other. Jake is 16 - is that the sticking point? I can see a cutoff being needed, for sure. If he was 18 and she was 22 I doubt there would be any issue. And if he was 14 and she was 18 I guess it would look even worse. In America there are laws about statutory rape, but let's pretend those don't exist in the 24th century and there's a more advanced system to determine whether someone is being taken advantage of. So maybe we need to look at the particulars:

-Marta is 20. But despite Elliott's suggestion that being a war orphan means she may be *more mature* than average, I would argue it's equally likely she's less mature. Not having time to develop normally doesn't mean you develop faster; usually it means you don't develop at all. She might well be emotionally younger even than Jake. And when wondering why in the world she'd be into him (other than the "commander's son" angle) maybe this is part of it. Maybe she still feels more like a kid who had to do hard things.

-I suspect that by making her older the episode was deliberately trying to be progressive in depicting the reverse of what we normally expect in our age: the younger girl and older (college-age) guy. And in this case it's the father being protective of the son to an extent, rather than the "dad with shotgun" trope. And I'm pretty sure their intent was to show that Sisko was trying to be open to this rather than coming down hard on it; a second point in the "we want to be progressive" column. You can say what you want about the result, but there's no way it's sexist to reverse gender stereotypes and show the reverse situation as they did here.

-I'm a bit hesitant to accept the logic of this point as well:

" Jake was most recently described as still being at the age where he and his buddy drool over the women arriving on the station."

While we may well call this immature behavior, it's not the sort of immaturity that defines being a "child", as this same behavior can be seen in legal adults of all ages. I've seen 30 and 40 year olds do literally the same thing, and be far more crass and childish about it than Jake and Nog ever were. So should they morally be considered to be "children" and anyone who has sex with them is a child abuser? This is hyperbole, but only to show that this sort of thing can't really be used at all to assess whether a 16 year old is ready to have a relationship with a 20 year old. Aside from the fact that it would depend on many things, this is also the future and we don't know much about their views on sexual mores; at least, we don't assuming we ignore TNG S1-3, as I would suggest we do. But even now in New York you'll see very young women dating men 40 years their senior, and although this would make people in some areas upset over there in that liberal bastion it's considered normal and you're not supposed to say anything about it. Whether that's right or wrong, it seems like standards can change a lot, so it's not clear whether we should take it for granted that 16 is considered to be a "child". I wouldn't, and although when I watch the ep I grimace, sort of in sympathy with Sisko, it's less about just the age and more about the idea that Jake seems to have developed all of these traits under the radar. It's less about him being a child vs an adult, and more about SIsko's worries from Emissary being justified, that being raised on a crazy space station is going to affect someone, and probably in some negative or at least concerning ways. From that standpoint Jake probably *is* ready to date her, and that's actually the scary part for Sisko.

Still, the trope of "dad protecting teenage daughter" could have turned on its head in a different way than making the daughter a son. In some alternative universe where Jake was Jakette they might have featured her dating an older man and had SIsko been ok with it to turn the modern trope on its head. But they did it this way instead since there's no Jakette. Ah well.

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Brian
Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 8:41pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Destiny

Excellent episode, probably 4 stars from me. I love most of the emissary episodes, but I enjoy that sub genre of sci do.
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Chrome
Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 8:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

@Robert

LOL, sounds like a plan.

My question on this one is, is Jake’s story supposed to be a metaphor for the young Jem’Hadar growing up too fast? It’s like I can almost see the parallels but I’m not sure the writers intended that. Otherwise I can’t really wrap my head around Jake suddenly getting this woman he doesn’t seem ready for.
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Robert
Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 8:21pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

I sided against you on the last one so I'll agree with you here. Anything that is gross when you gender flip is gross. And if my girls bring home a college senior when they are HS seniors I'm getting out my Bat'Leth.
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Robert
Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 8:13pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The House of Quark

I've been following along here and chugging on it. I think Eliott is reading the scene wrong (but the scene has problems). Keiko's first assumption is that Molly would stay with Miles and Miles had already assumed Keiko would want to take her. To me that, and this story, is the opposite of sexist. Especially for the 90s. So is it sexist that Keiko ends up taking her? No. And just the fact that it was a possibility that Miles would keep her is enough for me. Especially since this was a clunky "write them off" plot device.

To me it's way more problematic that there really isn't anything to do with her! I how she goes to school on Bajor because there sure as hell isn't one on the station.

And I say this as a really nurturing Dad who rolls his eyes hard when people say it's nice that I babysit. No, I parent thanks. I kiss booboos, give baths, change diapers and am currently reading this to stay awake next to my little one while I sing her to sleep.

Keiko thinks that Miles intends for her to go without Molly. That comment alone goes a long way for me.
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