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Nathaniel
Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 7:13am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Starship Mine

"Oh, please! Knowing DS9, this episode would've ended with Sisko resolving the issue by talking to those stupid wormholes aliens. "

xkcd.com/285/
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Nathaniel
Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 9:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: In the Cards

@Elliott

No one is saying you are obligated to like this episode. However, complaints like, "Jake should resent his father, because it is an unwritten law that all children must resent single parents. That he doesn't means Sisko is loved by the writers," doesn't exactly impress.
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Nathaniel
Thu, Jul 5, 2012, 4:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: BSG S1: Flesh and Bone

@Nick P.

How odd then that words right out of McCain's mouth contradict you: www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/listen-sen-mccain-torture-doesnt-work

"under torture a person will say anything he thinks his captors want to hear — true or false — if he believes it will relieve his suffering. Often, information provided to stop the torture is deliberately misleading."

"Mistreatment of enemy prisoners endangers our own troops, who might someday be held captive. While some enemies, and al-Qaeda surely, will never be bound by the principle of reciprocity, we should have concern for those Americans captured by more conventional enemies, if not in this war then in the next."

As for your comment about Osama, here's this:

"I think that without a doubt, torture and enhanced interrogation techniques slowed down the hunt for bin Laden," said an Air Force interrogator who goes by the pseudonym Matthew Alexander and located Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, in 2006."

Khaleid Mohamed had to tortured over 100 times before he said anything. I thought torture was supposed to be great for its fast, reliable results?

What the Nazi's did was torture, and proves my point. There was no intelligence gathering. It was pure physical punishment for the joy of causing pain.

"Romans (and Armies throughout history) tortured captured spies and scouts to reveal locations of enemy encampments. Worked more times than you can even count."

Citation needed.

Magnus Gäfgen highlights the fallacy of the so called "ticking bomb" scenario. How perfect a scene for a Hollywood movie. The square jawed police officer who don't take no nonsense. The evil child killer alone in the room with him. The threats. The beatings. The bloody lipped confession, leading the brave just in time rescue of the dear child.

Cept the kid was already dead and all the threats did was get the German government sued. Successfully.

As said before. Torture is great for extracting confessions. Its crap for information gathering.
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Nathaniel
Wed, Jul 4, 2012, 5:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: BSG S1: Flesh and Bone

So in other words you got jack.

So glad to see your following the second part of my request in absence of providing evidence.

Though I am not foolish enough to expect a reply, something to chew on: in light of today being the 4th of July, how many Americans do you think the British would have justification for torturing? After all, they used many of the same tactics that people in Iraq and other parts of the middle east are using against us now.
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Nathaniel
Wed, Jul 4, 2012, 1:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: BSG S1: Flesh and Bone

So you admit you have nothing, no evidence to support your arguments, yet argue them anyways.

And oddly enough, for all of intelligence being a clandestine business, I can find plenty of articles on actually useful interrogation methods. And this is despite there being people from the previous administration with every reason to trumpet any sort of useful findings from the barbaric methods they used.

Also, my most sincere apologies. This time I'll tell you to put up or fuck off.
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Nathaniel
Wed, Jul 4, 2012, 11:42am (UTC -5)
Re: BSG S1: Flesh and Bone

@Nick P.

It doesn't work. Not if you want the truth. It works great if you want a confession. Absolutely baller for that.

If you smucks are going to keep repeating that line it "works" kindly back up your claims or bugger off.
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Nathaniel
Tue, Jul 3, 2012, 9:22am (UTC -5)
Re: BSG S1: Flesh and Bone

@Michael

No, you reveal in torture because of who you are, not your "humanity." I am human too, and I certainly don't lick my chops at the thought people being tortured.

It not argumentum ad ignorantiam. Its asking you to back up with position with real world facts. Which I note you still failed to do.

If your "imminent threat" scenario was really so easy and common to find in real life, you'd already have cited one.

Incidentally, there has yet to be a single substantiated claim of any useful information obtained by torture in our war against middle eastern terrorists.

But here, let me back up my facts. Torture doesn't work, and here's why: www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/21/the-tortured-brain.html

Here, have another: georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/04/top-interrogation-experts-say-torture.html

How the hell is B.S.G. being fictional relevant. You only start to downplay its significance after being started disagreeing with you, and you engaged in a multiple post long comment war. Funny behavior from someone who thinks this is all being taken too "seriously."

And I am taking it seriously, because this is not a theoretical issue. People were brutally beaten, drowned and even killed. By our government, in our name. And the people responsible never got punished, partly because people like you were cheering from the sidelines, high fiving at the thought of people they dislike getting punished.
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Nathaniel
Mon, Jul 2, 2012, 12:13pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Man of the People

@Elliott

Nothing but artifice? You don't like the characters, so anyone who does like them are pretending or lying?

Same to you, pal.
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Nathaniel
Mon, Jul 2, 2012, 11:58am (UTC -5)
Re: BSG S1: Flesh and Bone

@Michael,

You keep on talking about a ticking time bomb scenario. Do me a favor. Point out to me what one looks like.

But here's the catch. Take an example from real life. Not a police procedural, 24, or Mission Impossible. Real life.

You won't find it. Because the so called "ticking bomb" scenario doesn't happen outside of fiction.

By the the bomb is "ticking" so to speak, you've already lost. Hollywood notwithstanding, intelligence operators prevent such things from happening in the first place, because stopping something already in progress is nigh impossible.

If 9/11 were written by Hollywood, Vin Diesel would have punched out the vaguely middle eastern terrorist and steered away the plane just time to avoid hitting the tower.

After torturing the information about the plot out of someone else appropriately brown skinned first of course. Because people like you get their cinematic jollies that way apparently.
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Nathaniel
Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 10:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: BSG S1: Flesh and Bone

There is ample reason to not use torture. Its immoral, and it doesn't work.

Hell, its more than just not working. It actively ruins intelligence gathering. It is a well established fact that if you put most people in enough pain they will talk. They will say anything, tell anything to make the torture stop. So the torturer cannot ever know whether what the victim says has any relation to the truth. It is far more likely in fact to be related to what the victim believes the torturer wants to hear.

I find it bitterly ironic that we are having this discussion on a site that has just reviewed the Chain of Command. It boggles my mind that there are people that can call themselves Star Trek fans who so completely ignore the message of such a lauded episode.

People who like to talk about "toughness" or "facing reality" about torture do nothing but reveal their own ignorance and thirst for suffering of people they consider villains. The very show you claim to love belies your claims.
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Nathaniel
Fri, Jun 1, 2012, 12:51pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S4: In a Mirror, Darkly, Part I

@Paul York
Experiments on live people are done as well. The distinction is not life but of what kind of experiments are done.

I'd tell you to actually look up the quite stringent guidelines scientific researchers have to follow on animal testing, but I suspect that your stupidity on this issue is quite willful.
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Nathaniel
Wed, May 30, 2012, 3:43pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S1: Dear Doctor

I see a injured person by the side of the road. They are hurt, badly. They beg for my help. I ponder it for a bit, then leave them without a backwards glance. While helping them might be the right thing to do, it might not be. They could be a ordinary person who needs help, but they could also be a psycho who ends up murdering someone. Less melodramatically, the injured could be a mean, nasty person who beats their spouse and spits on children.

I have no way of knowing. The decision is just too big for me. I don't feel too bad. After all, if I never existed or made contact, that person's fate would be the same.

P.S: In response to your first point, I have yet to see a justification of the supposed "complication" of the situation that doesn't involve an abhorrent misunderstanding of evolution and biology.
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Nathaniel
Mon, May 28, 2012, 12:46am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S1: Dear Doctor

Except you have yet to answer the real question: WHY THE HELL IS SAVING LIVES SUDDENLY BAD?

How many lives can a medicine save before it becomes inadmissible?

A hundred?

A thousand?

A million?

How many lives does it take before intentionally killing an entire species of sapient life becomes the right thing to do?
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Nathaniel
Sun, May 27, 2012, 10:39am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S1: Dear Doctor

@Eliiott: I'm sure that Picard quote would provide great comfort to the millions or billions of people dying painfully and with a cure just out of their reach.
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Nathaniel
Wed, May 9, 2012, 12:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S5: Nothing Human

@Paul York
You are quite wrong. Animal experimentation is done because it often is generally predictive of human response to treatments and medicine. Not always, but generally.

One of the biggest reasons rats are so popular for medical studies is because their digestive tract has a high similarity to humans beings. Thus drugs and chemicals ingested by them often have similar effects on their physiology as on ours.

Something that you should also consider: Virtually every treatment and medicine made today, yesterday and in the last 100 years was tested first on animals. If it doesn't work on animals, it never makes it to human trials. So those who advocate for halting animal testing are demanding that all testing be stopped. No new treatments, and no new medicines.
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Nathaniel
Sat, Apr 28, 2012, 6:27am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S1: Dear Doctor

@Keiren- If you wish to continue to make comments in this vein, please read first some articles on evolution and how it works. Or at least crack open a biology textbook. You're embarrassing yourself.
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Nathaniel
Tue, Apr 10, 2012, 8:07am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S1: Dear Doctor

@Beta

Your comments might have applicability if Star Trek ever let science get in the way of story, or if Doctor Phlox brought up your concerns in story. Given that he didn't, I am forced to assume that his cure would have no such complications.
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Nathaniel
Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 12:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S1: Dear Doctor

@Jack
Except "Nature" isn't an intelligent planning entity with a grand scheme. Hell, that kind of reasoning is what lead people to believe the AIDs was God's judgement and doom on gay people.

@Beavis
If a doctor can cure someone of a deadly disease, is asked to do so, but doesn't, that's called malpractice. At minimum. Murder in most people's minds.

Was eradicating small pox horrible interference in our planet's "natural cycle?"
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Nathaniel
Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 11:12pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S1: Dear Doctor

To anyone who defends this episode, I say this: You are defending an episode where the characters commit genocide. Not merely genocide, but extinction of an intelligent species. Genocide through withholding rather than act, but genocide nonetheless. Which the episode holds as the preferable outcome.

If your conclusions lead to genocide, I'd say that's a crystal clear sign that you screwed up somewhere down the line.
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Nathaniel
Sun, Nov 6, 2011, 11:33am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S4: Observer Effect

Am I the only one who thinks that this entire episode proves what a sack of crap Dear Doctor's "moral" was?
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Nathaniel
Mon, Apr 25, 2011, 2:55pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: Ensign Ro

The fact that she is abrasive and a loner. This guy has only met women who are sweet and adore people, so obviously this means no woman can be like Ro Laren. Its PC police run amok people! Run for your lives!

Bonus terror points for this scary non-woman maintaining her abrasiveness towards her male human superiors.
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Nathaniel
Sun, Apr 3, 2011, 7:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S6: Far Beyond the Stars

For those who seem to feel that Brook's acting of the nervous breakdown was over the top, let me reassure it wasn't.

How do I know? Because I had one.

Someone claimed it was silly that a 1950s writer would breakdown after dealing with racism all his life. Nervous breakdowns aren't logical. And they are not subtle or small.

In all honesty, Brooks played it much smaller than he otherwise could have.

The entire scene makes me uncomfortable. It feels... almost voyeuristic, watching something so intense.
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