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James White
Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 8:10am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Star Trek Picard movie??

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wegotthiscovered.com/movies/cbs-reportedly-planning-star-trek-picard-movie/amp/
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James White
Sat, Apr 11, 2020, 6:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Omicron - well said. I couldn't agree more.

Best,
James
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James White
Sat, Apr 11, 2020, 1:57pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Omicron - I think you have it backwards. It's precisely because the quality of posters on this forum is generally much higher than your average joe's that makes this such a great place to discuss real-world issues. Don't be like the schleps who take legitimate political/social issues and turn them into a binary, "it's us vs. them" kind of discourse, replete with ad hominem attacks, false equivalencies, and so forth. In other words, talk real but talk smart.

You also misunderstand what I'm saying regarding real world issues. Don't discuss them in a vacuum, but rather take the lessons, philosophical points, moral dilemmas of ST and apply them to the real world.

To all of you, what's the point, really, of even watching Trek if you can't, one day, do something with some of the wisdom wrought from the experience? And I don't simply mean the shows, but how many of you, over years and years, have thought through some very difficult issues/ themes.

Think about where we're at right now. Put aside the stupid rhetoric, the political folly and just look at the world for a moment. There are foundational issues of freedom vs. order/health, particularly in an era where real-time information (whether accurate or not) is driving policy decisions. There are issues of whether people truly need to work to simply pay the rent, or whether the minimal requirements of existence can be collectively provided (or at least partially subsidized). The virus is a trigger for issues of remote working, further automation and supply chain consolidation, the elimination of brick and mortar retail stores, and so on. But these already existed.

These ALL, in one form or another, have been tackled by Trek. In this specific and peculiar time, the MOST TREKIAN thing you can do is talk about the world.

And I think Jammer would want people to press their ideas outside the bubble of ST commentary. If some people are offended, too damn bad. Welcome to life.
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James White
Sat, Apr 11, 2020, 8:03am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Dave in MN - I agree that STP is an inchoate mess, with political themes touched on, forgotten, misapplied, or just plain abused.

My point isn't whether it's a good sci fi show to draw attention to today's political and cultural issues. My point is that it is illogical to restrict conversation on this board from delving into the issues themselves (regardless of the allegorical source).

Besides, if STP sucks as bad as it does, and we're living in an extraordinary times, WHY WOULDN'T WE TALK ABOUT THE REAL WORLD?
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James White
Sat, Apr 11, 2020, 7:56am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Booming - great write up on refugees. What do you think of their depiction in District 9?
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James White
Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 11:20am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Garth said: "Oh, but thanks to those informed comments from 2000(?!) about Mitt Romney and McCain, those clowns weren't elected."

Mitt Romney is many things, but a clown he is not. It's debatable whether Romney would have been a better president than Obama.

Also, McCain (circa 2008) was a pretty mediocre candidate. McCain (circa 2000) was infinitely better than what we ultimately got.
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James White
Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 11:16am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Dave in MN

Since ST is a means of addressing politics and current events through the medium of science fiction, I disagree that people should not also discuss the underlying politics and current events.

I think you should reconsider your position.
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James White
Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 3:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

You guys are just too timid to just say fuck you to Kurtzman. Try it; it's easy.
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James White
Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 11:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Also, anyone who hasn't seen Black Mirror has missed the best anthology sci fi in decades. Especially the first couple of seasons.
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James White
Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 11:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Tom - with all due respect, comparing Firefly to the Expanse is ridiculous. Just watch it.
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James White
Sat, Apr 4, 2020, 11:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Quincy - you still have no clue what you're talking about. Stick to film/tv show discussion.

For the rest, I agree this is not the forum to discuss complex, philosophical ideas.
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James White
Sat, Apr 4, 2020, 12:02am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Quincy, just stop. Honestly, you're making a fool of yourself
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James White
Fri, Apr 3, 2020, 8:57am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Andy's Friend

Thank you for posting something intelligent on the subject of AI and consciousness. I still enjoy reading Chalmers, Dennett, Searle, Churchland, and others. The issue of strong and weak AI, and the hard vs easy problems relating to the same, have been around for a number of decades now. It's nice to see someone paying attention. It's also the sort of knowledge you need to differentiate older Trek, which ponders some of these questions albeit through sometimes incoherent or silly circumstances, and stuff like DSC and Picard which lack any essential desire to confront such subjects (on their own terms) or to recognize the inherent difficulties in even asking the right question (in the first place).

One statement you made was interesting. You said:

"I hope Piletsky's remarks on the necessity of the unconscious for consciousness isn't lost on readers."

Isn't it the evolutionarily driven attributes, like desires and imagination, that at least partly dwell in the unconscious region that give rise to the synchronous cycle you mentioned? The point was that you need this synchronicity to make possible qualia, the internal instances of subjectively experienced consciousness.

The consequence being that if you remove unconsciousness, as you mentioned, you remove that which provokes the mind's cycle toward experiential, subjective consciousness. Yet, at least one of your philosopher sources cited indicates that an adequate substitute for the desires, imaginative drivers, and so forth could be included in the development of a synthetic intelligence, even without an unconscious realm existing. Perhaps as a substrate mechanism or a feedback loop that facilitates the overall intelligence's development.

The point is that a synthetic mind with the qualia Chalmers refers to, in distinguishing strong from weak AI, may not depend on a subconscious state. Maybe it ultimately will, since much of this is still speculative science, but we can't know this at this point. Moreover, and this is the larger point, maybe none of the speculation is warranted, either way, since it still remains unclear whether the conscious, subjective experience itself can be reduced to something that code X within hardware Y can achieve.

In short, this may still be a "hard" philosophical problem, as Data's ambiguous "expression" upon Lal's death exemplifies.
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James White
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:56pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Last thing - Jurati is 10x better in Devs. Another show that laughs at Kurtzman.
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James White
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 10:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Take care everyone. Last time I'll post for awhile.
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James White
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:13pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Tim - you really don't understand how the criminal justice system works.
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James White
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Let's be honest. Nothing in recent Trek is even remotely within the ballpark of the best from BSG, The Expanse, and Black Mirror. There was a time Trek was dominant in sci fi. Some of the best TOS, TNG and DS9 episodes are high watermarks for television, writ large. More than that, they inspired us to wonder, and dream, and move future sci fi writers to create grand new symphonies themselves.

Black Mirror has some extraordinary episodes. The worldbuilding in The Expanse is probably the best we've ever seen in science fiction television. Certainly in the top 2 or 3. BSG is a monumental accomplishment. Ronald Moore is a hundred times the talent of Kurtzman. Hell, the new Lost in Space runs laps around this bland, stupid, nostalgia-reliant deck.

Are there a few shows and a few moments that are genuinely solid in DSC and PIC? Yes, no denying that. Is there anything that really moves any of us in the way Trek used to. No damn way. Maybe these shows will get better. But, honestly, who cares. They just don't matter much anymore.

When you "flatten" Trek, even when you succeed financially it doesn't matter. You miss the whole point of the extraordinary voyage that Roddenberry set in motion all those years ago.
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James White
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 4:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I agree with Booming's assessment of Jurati's culpability. You must have an enquiry to make a threshold determination of mental capacity. You don't just assume it, one way or the other. A psychologist assesses whether, under the circumstances, you acted of your own volition. That you knew what you were doing. Related to this, you ask whether Jurati understood right from wrong at the time she took Maddox's life.

Given what we know, the most likely conclusion is she was aware and was acting of her own volition. It's possible that someone could conclude she was so overwhelmed by the Admonition that she was basically carrying out orders to kill. That she had no real control. I just don't think the facts, as we see them, support this. Similarly, we must ask whether her concept of right and wrong was compromised by the Admonition, such that she honestly did not know that killing Maddox was wrong under the law. This, by the way, is different from whether she believed the act itself was morally justified. I think she was aware that killing Maddox was illegal. Her comments to Picard later are pretty revealing of her state of mind.

So, she's probably guilty under the law. However, the presence of the Admonition and her belief that Maddox is some agent of death could reduce the charge from murder to manslaughter or something similar. Moreover, on sentencing several of these factors could be used to significantly "mitigate" a prison term.

However, her belief that killing Maddox served a greater good would probably be viewed as vigilante justice and not accepted. It might also contravene or muddy the mitigation arguments.

2 years in a mid-level prison sounds about right.
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James White
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 2:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Nick - with respect, you really are missing what everyone is saying. The "fan service" you mention isn't a plus. It's one of the problems. You may disagree with the opinions re the show's quality. But you're cherry picking what you're reading in these threads if you honestly don't know, by now, what people feel are the real problems with this show, with Kurtzman, and so forth. There are dozens and dozens of well written posts. Again, you can disagree with them. What you can't do is mischaracterize them or pretend they don't exist.
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James White
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 2:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Rahul

I'm in a similar camp. Couple of at least noteworthy episodes. None crack the top 40 or 50 of Trek for me.
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James White
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:51am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I'm just curious, is there a single episode from the two seasons of DSC or the recent season of PIC that anyone would put in their top 25 or top 30 list of all-time Trek episodes?
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James White
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 1:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

He was very good, Marvin. That short, little scene between he and Picard is one of the best of the whole season.
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James White
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 1:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I didn't realize there was so much Keiko infatuation here. :)

Breaking Bad reference is pure awesome. So too is Harris Yulin. My 137th complaint for this show is, therefore, a lack of solid guest stars. Riker and Troi don't count.
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James White
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 12:30pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Robert - like the seventh circle around here. Blub.
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James White
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 12:20pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Here is how I would "cut" the season for a special edition release:

-- Part 1: Take most of episode 1 up to the point that Picard and Dahj are attacked. Instead of Dahj dying, Picard has a portable, spacial trajector that he fashioned w/ Geordi's help and his residual knowledge from his time as Locutus. Picard and Dahj disappear through the gate.

-- Part 2: Basically, the Nepenthe episode. Edit the episode so Soji is called Dahj. Make a few other adjustments. Add a sequence where Picard collapses b/c of his condition at the end.

-- Part 3: Data visits Picard in his mind, after he's collapsed. Tells Picard how to find the synth planet. They go there with Riker and Troi's help. They meet Soong. Picard's mind is uploaded to the quantum blah-blah-blah server and he speaks poignantly with Data. Life, death, existence, meaning, women. Whatever. They both agree to continue "the adventure," whatever the hell that means. Fade to black.

-- Epilogue: Kurtzman is tied to a chair and is forced to watch Keiko scenes on an endless loop with his eyelids stapled open.

The End
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