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BZ
Wed, Feb 7, 2018, 6:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: The War Without, The War Within

Something I just thought about, and it's related to Yanks's point, is that Michael is supposed to be a (now former) first officer, but she doesn't look or act like one. Sure, we've seen very little of her *as* a first officer, but she acts like an ensign at the start of her career, not a "number one". The only person we see less sure of herself is Tilly, who is a cadet. And even Tilly seems to move ahead of her in some respects by now. Now, certainly Michael has no rank now, but you don't lose your experience when you get stripped of rank. And I can't blame the acting because she's clearly *written* like a junior officer, a Harry Kim, not a T'Pol, and certainly not a Riker.
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BZ
Mon, Feb 5, 2018, 12:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: The War Without, The War Within

@AR,
We don't know when Terrans conquered the Klingons. And, sure, the Klingons may be similar, but they may not be. Of the most heavily featured mirror species, the humans, Bajorans, and Ferengi are noticeably different. The Vulcans are substantially the same. The DS9-era Klingon-Cardassian alliance seems to portray both species as similar to their PU counterparts, but it's not like anyone would realize this in the era Discovery is set in, especially when the only Klingons they meet in the MU are the rebels.
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BZ
Mon, Feb 5, 2018, 11:50am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: The War Without, The War Within

Some thoughts on Georgiou:

Nice to see her back but...

She is treated as a visiting (or exiled?) head of state rather than a prisoner. My gut reaction is that this is wrong, but thinking about it, it actually makes a certain amount of sense.

Doesn't everyone aboard the ship know that Mirror Georgiou is aboard the ship? Was the admiral's declaration about "Captain Georgiou" just a way of saying "this is our cover story if anybody asks"? Or Are we supposed to think some of the crew were not informed?

Why are we trusting Mirror Georgiou any more than we did Mirror Lorca? All it takes is another "Captain's Override" and Georgiou is back in the MU using the most powerful ship to retake the Emperorship. Or does Georgiou not know how to do that since Lorca was intimately familiar with the spore drive? Failing that, she could take command of the weakened Federation and turn it into another empire.

Even forgetting all that, the MU Klingons are not necessarily the same as the PU Klingons. I thought the whole point of the MU resistance planet was that the MU klingons are more reasonable and willing to work with other races to resist the Empire. Michael didn't get anywhere figuring out how to make piece with the Klingons because the MU Klingons are so different. Suddenly Mirror Georgiou is the PU Klingon behavior expert?
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BZ
Thu, Feb 1, 2018, 12:30pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: What's Past Is Prologue

@Trent (and others with similar points),
"The Lorca revelation doesn't reconfigure past episodes"

Sure it does. Up until this point we were just speculating. Was it just Lorca? What about the rest of the crew? What are their actual goals?

Now that we know (or think we know?) it's just Lorca, he's just evil with a knack for convincing everyone to join him, and his plan was to return to the MU using Discovery's spore drive and mirror Michael's clout, are there any inconsistencies with this in earlier episodes? Does Lorca do anything that doesn't fit this reading of his character? That everything he does is either acting the part to avoid suspicion or actively furthering his plan? Maybe. For example, why would he put himself between the Klingons and another Starfleet ship when no one would have bllamed him for running when the odds turned against him? What about other characters? Are they consistent with just being "charmed" by Lorca and not "evil" themselves? Maybe the security chief, but she dies way to quickly to be sure. But as I said, it's almost necessary to rewatch from episode 3 on to see if everything fits.
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BZ
Thu, Feb 1, 2018, 11:43am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: What's Past Is Prologue

I disagree that requiring a rewatch to get everything out of a series is a bad thing. When I was a college student, we learned how to listen to a classical music piece. You need to do it three times. Basically, you go into it the first time not knowing where it will go. You are utterly surprised by every thematic change, modulation, etc. The second time you know what's coming, and concentrate on how everything is prepared for and foreshadowed in retrospect. The third time is similar to the first in that you concentrate on a piece in order as it is presented to you, but appreciate it more by keeping your knowledge of where it ends up in the background.

I think this approach can be adopted to any good work. In a good piece all three run-thrus are rewarding, but the third is the most rewarding. This means, basically, that you can rewatch something as many times as you want without losing interest, because all subsequent rewatchings are essentially repetitions of #3.

Of course now that I posted this, I need to follow my own advice and rewatch everything to see how it holds up.
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BZ
Tue, Jan 30, 2018, 8:49pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: What's Past Is Prologue

crap, I meant seize of course
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BZ
Tue, Jan 30, 2018, 8:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: What's Past Is Prologue

@Todd,
Maybe the rebels we saw cease control of the empire (and turn out to be just as evil once in power)
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BZ
Tue, Jan 30, 2018, 11:23am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: What's Past Is Prologue

@Lobster Johnson,
I think it's valid to say that all of this was in early episodes. Stamets has come around. The others seem to have as well.
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BZ
Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 10:06am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: What's Past Is Prologue

RE: Destiny, we were talking about how unlikely Lorca's plan was to succeed. Here the show acknowledges it. I read it as Lorca accidentally ending up in the PU with no plan, and then everything coming together to allow Lorca to present himself as the sole survivor from the Buran, getting command of Discovery with its spore drive, getting Michael, etc. As a result, he understandably believes he was destined to come back and take over the Empire.

In fact the entire existence of the MU with mirror counterparts of all of our characters in similar relationships with each other throughout multiple Trek series smacks of destiny. I don't see it as an implausible conclusion at all.
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BZ
Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 8:59am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: What's Past Is Prologue

It is a well-known fact that despite Gene Roddenberry's legendary vision for a future utopia, he was hellbent on sticking in titillating women for our heroes to ogle / hook up with in every episode he could, to the point that the studio / others working on the show had to step in and veto his ideas.

In addition, TOS was essentially an anthology show with the same main cast, but little to no continuity. Oh, sure, there was a handful of follow ups and recurring characters/races, but it wasn't really until the TOS movies that a coherent narrative began to develop and the Trek universe as we know it began to take shape. It's one reason why prequels can work in this universe, and that a well-written reboot of the TOS time-frame is not as unpalatable as it might have been.
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BZ
Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 3:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

@Chrome,
None of those deal with the prime directive. In Prime Factors, it was a matter of breaking the aliens' laws (not the Federation's). In Endgame the choice was go home or destroy the Borg conduits, no prime directive. In Death Wish, a "bribe" from Q to rule in his favor, again no prime directive.
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BZ
Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 2:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

@Dom,
Even Tuvok? Tuvok was one of my favorite Voyager characters (along with The Doctor and Seven of Nine). He's easily as good as Spock and playing a Vulcan. Sure, he was underused, but when he was used he was a great character.
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BZ
Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 8:35am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

I don't think Archer was terrible, but he was definitely unevenly written (not as bad as Janeway, but close). I would have said bad acting played a part too, but I know Bacula can act. I loved Quantum Leap and he basically played a different character every week in that show, and did it superbly, so I have to kick it to writing and directing, especially since he improved significantly (though not enough) in seasons 3-4. This makes it hard to make the leap to what he was made out to be in universe (the mediator between Vulcans and Andorians, the driving force behind the founding of the Federation, a celebrated great captain, etc)
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BZ
Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 1:09pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

@Chrome,
Yes, I see your point, though to what extent this change was inspired by Babylon 5 (which I have not seen) is debatable. The Dominion was first mentioned in season 2, though this does not mean the war plot was already envisioned. Official sources only say that the direction the war would take was shaped in "The Die is cast" ("After today the only real threat to us from the Alpha Quadrant are the Klingons and the Federation. And I doubt that either of them will be a threat for much longer.")

As a side note, I'm of two minds about the finale. I like that the characters are given time to say goodbye and move on (which was only sort of done in TNG and Voyager, both of which show an alternate future that didn't come to pass in the end), but I don't like the clip show that part 2 has become. And let's not get into the Sisko/Dukat/Winn plot resolution.
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BZ
Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 12:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

@Chrome,
"to compete with Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica, which were doing similar war stories at the time."

There was no Battlestar Galactica on during DS9. The last Battlestar Galactica-related work ended in 1980. The next one started in 2003. DS9 was on 1993-1999.
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BZ
Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 11:40am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

@Peter G,
This all depends greatly on how, when, and why Lorca entered the PU, and when Burnham became part of his plan (or even when he formed his plan).

My take as of now is that he entered the PU (somehow) sometime before the battle of binary stars, simply to run away from the MU and regroup. He found his PU counterpart, and, when the ship was lost with all hands, faked being the only survivor. He found out about Discovery and its mission, and only then formulated a plan to request command of Discovery, get Michael (who was already imprisoned by then), and use Discovery Tech and Michael to get home and try to get back at the Emperor again.

Before knowing that Lorca was from the MU, I assumed the shuttle pilot was rescued off screen, and this may still be the case. Since the somewhat questionable practices aboard Discovery were known to Starfleet Command and condoned (presumable because "we are at war", it's not surprising (to them) that Lorca would put Michael, someone with no other choice but life in prison, to take a post that a normal officer would find unpalatable. Then he just tried to act the way he thought teh PU Lorca would act until he had enough data to return to the MU.

I think that covers everything
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BZ
Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 10:43am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

I can't really rate Lorca yet. There's just not enough there, so my captain list (based on writing, not acting)

1. Picard
2. Sisko
3. Kirk
4. Archer
5. Janeway

By acting ability:
6) Sisko/Brooks
5) Archer/Bakula
Shatner, Isaacs, Mulgrew about tied
1) Picard/Stewart
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BZ
Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Gee,
Michael got access to the Defiant files as the captain of the Shenzhou, so clearly it is not just the emperor who has it. Mirror Michael already held this position when presumed killed by mirror (our?) Lorca. Lorca was also attempting to assassinate the emperor. Clearly he held a high enough position in the empire to attempt this and have a captain chase after him.
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BZ
Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:30am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Gee
If Lorca is from the MU, he may have had access to the Defiant files, and studied how humans in the PU behave. If his escape to the PU was planned (unlike the transporter accident that swapped the TOS away teams) he would certainly have had time to prepare and practice. There is also the possibility someone mentioned earlier that he's a "good guy" from the MU's perspective, which would mean he's not a 100% evil "barbarian" like some of the other MU characters.
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BZ
Tue, Jan 9, 2018, 9:14am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

No, she's trained to not show emotion when having to kill someone. Not just because she was raised on Vulcan, but because she's a (now former) first officer. How many times has Riker shown emotion when killing a random mook?
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BZ
Tue, Jan 9, 2018, 9:00am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

So let me get this straight. Unexpected twists are for "shock value" and foreshadowed twists are "predictable"?

Death has always been a problem in Trek. Most of trek pre-Enterprise was of the "redshirts die to show how dangerous everything is" variety. Enterprise, meanwhile started off with "nobody ever dies", and kept that up most of the time. Discovery, meanwhile, killed off three seemingly main characters by now. I think that's the best approach we've had in Trek.

Somebody mentioned how Burnham is all shocked after having to kill someone despite killing multiple times before. I read this as her recognizing the victim as someone she served with and respected in the prime universe.
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BZ
Mon, Jan 8, 2018, 10:54am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

Re: Terran Empire and Vulcans: What we see in ENT is Vulcans being subjugated by humans. Nevertheless T'Pol is in a fairly high position. What I see happening is that the species subjugated by humans are still represented on starships (after suitably demonstrating loyalty) which allows Spock to gain his high position as well. That we see Vulcan rebels in this episode is not a counterargument. After all, DS9 gave us human rebels despite Earth being subjugated by the Alliance. It also gave us select humans serving on Terok Nor and even piloting runabouts (Smiley before defecting)
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BZ
Wed, Dec 27, 2017, 11:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Into the Forest I Go

You do realize that at one point people read novels in installments in magazines. Isn't it horrible that kids these days can buy a book and read it in a few days? Anyway, I personally haven't watched much TV regularly since forever (I'm currently watching Discovery and Doctor Who weekly when they're on, but that's it). I don't binge seasons in then traditional sense either. The closest I've ever come to that is watching all of DS9 1-2 episodes a day, but that still took months. I just don't have the time. I don't begrudge others their watching habits, though.
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BZ
Sat, Dec 9, 2017, 5:41pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Into the Forest I Go

But Vulcans tend to believe they are superior to humans, and, at least in TOS are actually presented as superior. Spock and Tuvok do not aspire to be more human like Data and (to a lesser extent) The Doctor do. While Vulcan medication techniques may be somewhat useful to humans, it is implied that Vulcan biology is in part responsible for their ability to suppress emotions and embrace logic. So I suppose you could say that they *are* more evolved than humans. I actually have no problem any of these things. It is in fact a breath of fresh air in Trek when humans are not shown as the most superior of species. That was one of the things I actually liked about Enterprise.
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BZ
Thu, Dec 7, 2017, 9:39am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Into the Forest I Go

Sarek has an ... illogical track record when it comes to humans. He marries two humans and adopts a human child, yet seems to hold Vulcan ideals in very high regard. I suppose it's a metaphor for Americans adopting (or marrying?) people from disadvantaged countries to improve their lives. Guess the creators are against this idea.
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