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OmicromThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:06am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Jason R.
"And apparently no one on this board can either because no one can provide an answer to the question: 'how do we make the police less brutal?' "

Well, I'll say the first step is to return some semblance of normality to the lives of the ordinary citizens, so that this reform could take safely place.

I think the big protests that occured right after the Floyd murder were a good thing. The truth is, back then, nobody cared. Such incidents happened fairly frequently, and nobody ****-ing cared. The cops also walked scot-free afterwords, in many cases.

So it's good that - finally - somebody decided to say "enough!" and made a huge fuss about the whole thing. Now the topic is at the center of discussion all over the world, WHICH IS GREAT.

But now the situation is different. The protests have been heard. And it doesn't take a genius to realize that a country which is plagued with rioters and bullies and vandals is in no position to make huge changes to its police system.

I also fail to see how their current actions are combating racism. Gee, what a wonderful idea! So many people regard us as a race of subhuman criminals, so let's actually behave like subhuman criminals. That will teach them!

In short: Either these guys are very very stupid (which I doubt) or they have some other goal in mind, besides police reforms or actual social justice.
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:02am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Cody
https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/Churchill-1311392.webp?r=1595169471746
I wouldn't call that severely defaced.
And who is they. In the article it just says:"According to the Mail on Sunday a number of junior Treasury officials have complained they “do not feel comfortable” with the name of the Churchill Room."
So one right wing tabloid quoting an article of another right wing tabloid about a number of junior officials not feeling comfortable with the name of a room."
It seems like you are more on the outlook for gotcha stuff.

"These people are wackos and will never be satisfied."
Yawn. Myself and the overwhelming majority would be against bringing down a statue of Churchill or comparable. Yes he was a racist and did a lot of horrible stuff (war crimes and all) but that is all hugely overshadowed by what he did towards the Nazis and that is why he has those statues. He didn't get them for advocating using chemical weapons against indigenous people.

"You study right wing extremism in the USA don't you? I'm curious, do you personally interview US white supremacists?"
I mostly research German right wing populism (international comparisons are useful though) and related phenomenons . So yes I have probably talked with dozens if not more.

"If an intellectual like yourself has 0 idea how to reform the police you expect a random protester I pull off the street to have the answers?"
The matter doesn't interest me that much. Not more than the average citizen probably.

About meeting someone. Doesn't have to be a random protestor. They will have spokespeople. Just ask if they can provide you with material for what they want in detail or if you could meet somebody that could explain that. Just get the info without really detailing your position if you think that this could lead to repercussions.

And now I'm really done. It is not meant as an insult if I do not react, ok see you back in Trek. :)
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Jason R.
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:42am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

I am just going to say it again and keep saying it - what precisely is the policy endgame here? If the police are broken how do we fix them so that we are not back in the same place in another six years?
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Jason R.
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:39am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

"And again I would advice you to meet these people in person.
Get first hand information."

You study right wing extremism in the USA don't you? I'm curious, do you personally interview US white supremacists?

If an intellectual like yourself has 0 idea how to reform the police you expect a random protester I pull off the street to have the answers?

That's ironic coming from you.
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Cody B
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:30am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Booming

Oh okay since they didn’t get the opportunity to absolutely tear the statue down, only severely deface it, it just doesn’t count. Gotcha. And how about how they demand the treasury name be changed? I don’t know what it’s going to take for people like yourself to admit what you already know. These people are wackos and will never be satisfied.
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Cody B
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:26am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Omicron

I agree with you. As I’ve said before I’m slightly more left classically but am being forced more by the day to side with the right more and more. Everything from the left seems phony or just plain bad. Everything about it is screaming “this is a bad road to be going down”. The constituents have never been crazier and the politicians have never been so transparent and pandering and fake.
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:21am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Cody
uff, ok one last time. People committing vandalism.

There is nothing in the article about BLM wanting the statue removed. It was vandalized during a BLM protest.

And even if they would try removing the statue, Winston Churchill is the most popular historical figure in Britain.

Again guys strawman.
Please spare me more British right wing tabloid articles.
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Sen-Sors
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:18am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

"Jesus... you've just painted 50% of the population as inhumane monsters."

50% is your number that you pulled out of nowhere. And I'm not hearing any actual argument here; there are clearly a substantial number of humans that fit this description. Again, where's the lie?

So you guys saw a poster that said "silence is violence"? Oh you poor boo-boo. Why don't you look up the midnight no-knock warrant killing of Breonna Taylor? Do you think that's maybe worse? I'll post this person's story because ODTP probably hasn't heard of it. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/23/us/breonna-taylor-police-shooting-invs/index.html

The changing of society for the better has always come at great cost to the most vulnerable communities; it comes from the people who put themselves out in the streets, and it sure as hell never comes from the comfortable moderates.

And yeah, this has gone on long enough. It's gotten pretty far away from Star Trek. I've said my piece in this thread and I promise I won't say anything more, and I apologize for taking part in this massive derail.
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:12am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

I have a degree in that field but my focus is not policing or questions of social control. I also cannot answer questions about which police force is the best + police is only one element of a complex system. In other words maybe sweden has the lowest amount of police brutality but that could be because of numerous reasons. So if you cut out the swedish system and put it into the American (or Canadian) one then it might have different effects.

Watch that video I posted. It is very statistic and fact heavy (links to sources are often below the video) That is also about the split between committed crime (goes down for decades now) and incarceration which are 8x higher than in Germany.

And again I would advice you to meet these people in person.
Get first hand information.
Apart from that I really want to get back to just write and read about Trek here.
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Cody B
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:01am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Booming

BLM and a Churchill statue you say? Here’s that proof you asked for. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1311392/Black-lives-matter-Winston-Churchill-Treasury-room-Westminster-Whitehall/amp

They went after Gandhi to. Know you have quoted Gandhi before so BLM going after him might be conflict of interests for you. Also BLM is not one thing. It can mean simply and literally “Black Lives Matter”, which should be obvious but I suppose it needs reiterated and put in the face of some people, or it can also mean a phony political agenda or scam fundraising.
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OmicromThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:00am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Jason
"That's the playbook - shriek and yell and tell us the statues must come down because they being there is an intolerable act of "violence" against whoever and simultaneously tell us how we are making such a drama over just a few statues and who cares so much about them? Hardee har they're just some little ol' statues why get so worked up?"

That's exactly the playbook, and it's not just the statues.

If something offends their side, they are entitled to a free pass to do whatever they want about it, including breaking the law.

If something they do offends someone else... well, tough luck.

And the really scary thing is that so many people are falling for it. Otherwise, it wouldn't have had any impact.

See, these people know a thing or two about psychology. They know that if you frame it as "a protest against police brutality" and "systematic racism" then millions will give you a free pass to do whatever you want. Never mind that 99% of their actions have absolutely nothing to do with these goals. People don't care, once the psychological connection was made.

No doubt, this situation is going to go down as classing warning tale in the history books. The story of how a few militant groups managed to manipulate a strong democracy into committing suicide... by cynically manipulating the good heart of its people.
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Jason R.
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 5:50am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Booming I am going to try to focus on the important point and stop permitting myself to be distracted by side issues. Here is how I see things. Feel free to disagree with any point in partiular:

1. George Floyd is murdered (or at least man slaughtered or whatnot) by a police officer;

2. Something is wrong with police and policing in North America;

3. While police brutality is not confined to black people it does appear to hit black people harder;

4. We agree that racist predilections or attitudes among the police likely contribute to black people being hit harder by the problem;

5. Black Lives Matter wants to do *something* to solve this problem.

Here is where I lose the plot because I honestly can't go any further. And apparently no one on this board can either because no one can provide an answer to the question: "how do we make the police less brutal?"

These are by and large Democrat run cities some with black mayors so blaming Trump is a cop-out as he has nothing to do with policing at a local level. We went through this 6 years ago with Michael Brown and Ferguson and apparently nothing changed.

Why did nothing change? And what policy do you think will change things? Be specific. You are the sociologist. I implore you - tell us what needs to be done to eliminate George Floyd style policing *without* rolling back to the bad old days of Bernard Goetz era NYC.

Out of curiosity, how are the police in Germany? Are they better? If not, which country do you think has the best police and why?
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OmicromThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 5:31am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Booming
"And because Jason and his peers like to use singular voices as representative of the entire left everywhere..."

There are plenty of sane leftists out there. There are plenty of leftists who didn't forget what the words "liberal" and "progressive" used to mean.

See, it isn't "Jason and his peers" who refuses to accept their existence. It is you guys. It is the extreme left who insists on rejecting any person who doesn't accept the extreme craziness you call "the left" from your own lines.
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OmicromThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 5:09am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Booming
"Omicron let's make this clear once and for all.

I stopped talking to you a while back because you insulted me."

That's exactly the problem:

You have this tendency to write broad overconfident statements, and when people call out your BS, you see it as an insult.

Now, I wouldn't have even bothered to bring this up here, if it was just about you and me. Nobody cares about that. I'm bringing it up because this is very common behavior, which hinders the ability to have an actual open honest discussion.

And it's not like the people who do this hold any of their punches, either. Come on, Booming, you never hold your punches either, when you spot somebody else talking bullsh*t.

"But you are right, not talking to you is like a Human rights violation and clearly shows my murderous convictions."

Don't be ridiculous. I myself called the situation "silly".

But it's a silly example of a much bigger problem, which - at times - can cause great harm.

And I do see direct parallels between this and cancel culture. People don't like something, so the follow a two-step process:

(1) Frame that "something" as offensive (insulting, racist, etc)
(2) Use step #1 to rationalize a boycott of that unpleasant thing.

Of-course, sometimes these claims are true. Sometimes forum members are out to troll you and/or derail the discussion. Sometimes a twit really is racist. Sometimes the person you're firing really is a scumbag you shouldn't want to be in your organization.

But these days, many people don't even care whether it's "true" or not. They make these decisions by a gut feeling at best, and some kind of political agenda at worst.

"I, after you behaved poorly, made a choice to no longer talk to you and informed you about that. Instead of respecting that..."

Listen to yourself.

You speak about punishing a fellow commenter for "poor behavior" and expect them to respect that? Seriously?

And here again, there are parallels between this silly little incident and what's going in the world. The way some people feel so entitled is simply mind-boggling. What's next? You're going to demand that I kiss your shoes and apologize?

Sorry, but I'm not going to "respect" any of this sh*t.

(though I'm not actively looking for ways to insult you, either. I'm simply refusing to cooperate with childish demands)
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 5:06am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

And because Jason and his peers like to use singular voices as representative of the entire left everywhere, lets bring in a right wing voice.
That is from one those North carolina detectives: Piner told Moore he feels a civil war is coming and that he is ready. Piner said he was going to buy a new assault rifle, and soon "we are just going to go out and start slaughtering them (expletive)" blacks. "I can't wait. God, I can't wait."

I guess that means all on the right are racist and very eager to start a genocide.

Case closed.

And with these soothing words I'm out of the madness pit.
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SlackerInc
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 4:57am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S5: Thirty Days

“wouldn't 0700 be breakfast?”

Exactly what I was going to say! I guess the writers had a brain fart and mixed up 0700 with 1900.
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 4:42am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

Jason that is just a strawman argument. Always look at the most extreme voices and paint them as representative of the entire movement. And then use that imagined view as a jump off point for even more scaremongering.

Or hey show me a poll of BLM members who want to bring down Lincoln statues or Churchill?? You are all very certain without actual evidence. All you have is feelings.

Besides if a majority of the populace wants a statue gone then you are against that?
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Cody B
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 4:37am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Just watched episode two. They did slow down some of the fast talking and making everything quick quick quick. That’s a good thing but there’s still no real substance and most of the comedy just does not land. I’m also catching some annoying things like how they pause on the giant Horgahn (Rosa statue) in this episode. That is not a “Easter egg”. It’s in the middle of the screen and is the object of focus for 5 seconds. The show is just screaming “aren’t we cool? Remember this?”.
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Jason R.
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 4:26am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

By the way on the side issue of statues you guys are deaf, blind and stupid if you think this sort of thing is limited to lost cause era confederate monuments. This kind of thing has been going on for years and it's involved people from Lord Cornwalis to Abe Lincoln to Winston Churchill.

I know I know who cares if someone wants to tear down a statue - just petty "vandalism". How come dastardly racist conservatives care more about statues than human lives?

That's the playbook - shriek and yell and tell us the statues must come down because they being there is an intolerable act of "violence" against whoever and simultaneously tell us how we are making such a drama over just a few statues and who cares so much about them? Hardee har they're just some little ol' statues why get so worked up?
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Jason R.
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 4:17am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Trent I think I made it clear earlier that some rioting and looting is to be expected, particularly in the aftermath of an event like the Floyd murder. I don't consider that a big deal.

The violence in this case, particularly aimed at Federal buildings, appears to be coordinated, not spontaneous.

In any event, no answer on the police reform question I see. More racism original sin finger wagging.

Get back to me in 5 years and let me know what BLM did to reform the police and end police brutality.
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OmicromThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 3:38am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Trent

Sen-Sors wrote that reply to me, and I'm not a conservative.

Until recently, I always voted for the left in my country. And I will vote for them again, once the current madness (which isn't limited to the USA) stops.

Just because I'm scared to death of what's going on (and the protests are really just the tip of iceberg. The Orwellian censorship and cancel culture are the really scary thing here), does not make me a conservative.

And I'll tell you something else, this:

"The conservative tends to see police violence as necessary, or an understandable accident. "Certain races" commit more crime, are genetically or culturally predisposed to commit more crime, and so get shot more, deservedly or accidentally. To solve crime, they advocate more cops, more gear, harsher sentences."

Jesus... you've just painted 50% of the population as inhumane monsters.

Actually, it's more then 50%, because you label everybody who doesn't agree with the current craziness "conservative".

Is this how you guys convince yourselves that what's going on right now is okay? By demonizing everybody who doesn't agree with you?

How liberal and progressive of you.

@Sen-Sors
"Yeah, you're really set on fighting racism but this whole 'police brutality' things sounds like a lot of hoopla amirite?"

That's deliberately twisting my words to fit your own agenda.

I've specifically stated that police brutality is a problem which should be faught. I've said it more than once.

You know that... yet you chose to ignore that and try to paint me as some kind of racist. Me, and everybody else who dares to speak against the current madness.

And it's not the first time you've done that.

I see no point in continuing this "debate" any further. You're just like Admiral Satie: You see boogeymen everywhere, and are determined to "expose" them by any means necessary.

I do thank you though. You have done more to prove my points, than the most eloquent argument I could have written.
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SlackerInc
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 2:37am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S5: Counterpoint

I liked this episode but I wouldn’t call it one of the series' best as many of you are saying.

What stands out for me more than the episode itself is the comment section. Some really interesting and thoughtful observations. I never thought of the interpretations Chris P and Green Tree Sky offered, but they really make a lot of sense. Food for thought.

Like others, I loved Torat. Why did they go so much further with his makeup and prosthetics than they typically do, I wonder? They did kind of kidnap him: that was ethically pretty shaky.

But I guess I have a different understanding of the Prime Directive than most of you do. I always thought that was only about not interfering with prewarp civilizations.
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OmicromThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 2:19am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Even if Seth didn't directly write most of the epsiodes of Family Guy, he was a very active show-runner for many years, and he set that show's tone.

Many avid Family Guy fans say that when McFarlane stopped doing that (which was years ago) the show lost its way. Lost its edge, if you will.

Kinda like the Simpsons. Or Star Trek, come to think of it.
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 1:36am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

Here is a nice one which shows how to be racist without saying black:"The ‘suburban housewife’ will be voting for me, they want safety & are thrilled that I ended the long running program where low income housing would invade their neighborhood.”
Trump stopped the "invasion of their neighborhoods" from "low income" people.

That was a program that tried to mix in low income black people into more wealthy suburbs because studies show that the whites don't lose anything and the new black neighbors prosper significantly.

Here the more legal definition:"It requires cities and towns which receive Federal money for any housing or urban development related purpose to examine whether there are any barriers to fair housing, housing patterns or practices that promote bias based on any protected class under the Fair Housing Act, and to create a plan for rectifying fair housing barriers."
(yeah it only applied if you wanted federal money for housing projects)

Good that Trump saved the "suburban housewife" from being "invaded" by "low income" people.
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Trent
Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 10:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

Omicron said: "Anything they don't like, and this can be for the silliest and pettiest of reasons, they strive to erase from existence. Whether it's a national monument..."

The "national monuments" were overwhelmingly erected in the south as part of the "Lost Cause Movement". Stuff like the Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and PGT Beauregard statues were not erected just to honor these men, but to assert the values of the Confederacy, open and unrepentant white supremacy and total disregard for the humanity of black people.

And most of the statues were put up in the 20th century, when Civil Rights Movements were pushing for desegregation. They are not "old" statues. They're new monuments put up in the thousands by some pretty disgusting organizations to troll, send a message about white supremacy, and to sentimentalize people who had actively fought to preserve slavery.

That some "innocent statues" get caught in the crossfire of attacks on Confederate statues is surely small potatoes.

People also need to let go of the idea of "polite", "perfect soul" protest movements. There are no saints. And when violence determines the central questions of political life - statehood, territoriality, power and property - and when the "nice society" you live in is the result of centuries of brutal culling, its naive to expect major protest movements to be pious.

Speaking of cancel culture, the FBI says white supremacists were responsible for 78 percent of extremist murders last year (a 31 percent increase in hate crimes from 2014). In response, the government has recently disbanded the Homeland Security department dedicated to domestic terrorism and right-wing extremists.

SenSors said: "Yeah, you're really set on fighting racism but this whole "police brutality" things sounds like a lot of hoopla amirite?"

The conservative tends to see police violence as necessary, or an understandable accident. "Certain races" commit more crime, are genetically or culturally predisposed to commit more crime, and so get shot more, deservedly or accidentally. To solve crime, they advocate more cops, more gear, harsher sentences.

Lefties, meanwhile, tend to think holistically. The science says poverty overwhelmingly causes crime, and overwhelmingly causes social conditions which cause health problems or forms of social alienation which in turn tends to lead to crime. Address poverty and you address crime and you address racist cops.

Of course the conservative then says poverty is itself a product of "improper culture", "personal choices" or even "bad genetics". It must be, because the system the individual finds itself in is inherently meritocratic, fair, equal and makes sense. And so racist cops are justified because the system works.

The lefty, of course, says the opposite. The system is inherently unfair, unequal, hard free will is a myth, and capitalism is inherently exclusionary, breeds a paristized underclass, a permanently unemployed class, an indebted class, and so the conditions of crime, and so racist cops.

And so you get your impasse. How you view the BLM movement will probably be determined by your own class, position on the political spectrum and religious beliefs. Some studies, for example, show that Christians, or those who believe in Just World Theory, instinctively tilt toward supporting cops more. A demonic-heathen sociologist like Booming will probably do the opposite, instinctively sympathizing with BLM folk.
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