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Alan Roi
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 2:46am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Trekwatcher

We do get small scale intimat stories with the Short Treks. FYI, there will be two more short treks coming up shortly, and it appears that there will be some being prepared in advance of the Picard series as well.
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Alan Roi
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 2:43am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Uxbridge

Yes, you missed the scene with Burnham's mother's log where Dr Burnham stated she saved the churchpeople in an attempt to prove that she could change the past.
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Leif
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 2:31am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

I thought Queen Po was going with them into the future since she said she wasn't leaving Tippy! Didn't anyone else think this or want to see more of Po and Zahia, one of the coolest looking and most original and unique Strange New Worlds the show has come up with to date? And have more episodes exploring this world in the future..and havr made the last Red Signals related,to,some cool new alien being and or phenomenon as opposed to just Michael again twice...did anyone else want this?
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Uxbridge
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 2:22am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Startrekwatcher

I agree that I am not a big fan of season long story arcs. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I really liked the “three episode mini-arcs” from Enterprise Season 4. That way you have time to tell compelling stories, without getting locked in for an entire season.

One other thing I was thinking about. Which red angel was responsible for saving those people in the church during WW3 and bringing them to the Beta Quadrant? I don’t seem to recall Michael doing anything of this nature, except for going to the Beta Quadrant and sending the signal. Did I miss something when it was showing her time travel?
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Cody B
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 2:21am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

I usually defend Discovery but this is the first time I have to agree with the people who say it’s a bunch of sparkly fast paced action with no substance. Usually the story is good enough or we get some surprises. This episode was just a turd of a finale put inside a big shiny golden box with sparklers taped on the sides.
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Alan Roi
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 2:19am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow

Hmm... I will hand it to Seth this time around. Didn't see that whole Orville reset happening to fix the mess they created when the ship was supposed to have been destroyed and Mercer decided to ignore temporal causality because he was comfortable just where he was.
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Cody B
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 2:16am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Not a very good finale. They tried to shine it up and make it sparkle but the story was not good. They were painted into a corner having to wrap up the red angel crap. I hope discovery stops putting so much emphasis on arcs that last a whole season and concentrate more on single episodes. Or at the least if they want a whole season arc atleast make sure it is very strong. Red angel wasn’t. The first 2/3 of season two was very good. It was all the moments where red angel wasn’t the focus even if a lot of it was byproducts of the red angel storyline the episodes could have easily happened outside of any red angel crap. Well anyway I’m a bit didsapointed although this episode was what I expected since I knew things had to be wrapped up. I guess I was just hoping for atleast a nice surprise or something. Well here’s hoping next season tightens up and gets better.
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PM
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 2:14am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Holy hot damn that was awesome.

5/4 stars

Snitch, Brian L, if you can't see how awesome this episode was, you're "as blind as a Tiberian bat......sir!" ; )
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Booming
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 1:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ MidshipmanNorris
Seems like you are heading for a rough midlife crisis maybe worse.
Good luck. With Discovery and the rest. :)
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Alan Roi
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 1:27am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Karl Zimmerman @others

That was probably not enough to completely wipe out Control, but without the Sphere data holy grail, its going to be a whole lot tougher to become the threat it was going to be. Didn't believe for a moment what the interrogator stated.

Which, despite other people claiming that the ship didn't have to go to the future, it obviously still needed to as the sphere data still needed to be removed from its potential grasp.
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Startrekwatcher
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 1:12am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

It’d be nice if Trek would get back to more small scale intimate storytelling. Frankly I miss the basic episodic action adventure storytelling that most people fell in love with on TOS and TNG.

Nothing epic. No convoluted plotting. No serialization No obsession with Trek mythology. Not caught up in namedropping and Easter eggs.

Just fun exploration of the unknown—newlife, ancient civilizations, sci fi weirdness, discoveries that fired the imagination and the occasional thoughtful reflective outing

Writers are making it unnecessarily difficult in themselves trying to construct these complex arcs and story structures. Their time would be better spent on the nuts and bolts of just sitting down and crafting a solid script that is entertaining. I also think it would do them good to have to construct an actual beginning, middle and END!! Episodic storytelling won’t afford them the crutch of dragging things out and putting off a conclusion. Hopefully that would lead to better payoffs than the one they put off til the 11th hour
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Brian Lear
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 1:02am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Oh, and is anybody else sick of the fact that only female characters can solve problems on Discovery?
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Brian Lear
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:56am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Oh, and I will also say that the entire idea underlying the Control/sphere data plot makes no sense. Sorry it just doesn't. The sphere is an ancient lifeform that observed and recorded data about the universe for many years. I don't feel that the show ever really convinced me that the data in that sphere could reasonably be expected to allow an advanced AI to obtain consciousness, or, why that consciousness would be evil and seek destruction, as opposed to simply being a reflection of what it observed of sentient life in the universe for its entire history--a complicated mixture of evil, good, and everything in between. I would expect the sphere data to result in a consciousness that was both REALLY evil and REALLY compassionate and good at the same time--just like any living being. Wouldn't have been amazing if that character was created from the sphere data, and, you know, actually made into a likable character? Maybe a sort of "Q" for star trek: discovery.

But no, nothing that cool could ever happen on discovery. The sphere data would be shoe-horned into the rest of the season and used to build a paper-thin, non-interesting villain who was necessary for the plot to advance from point A to B. What could have been an awesome exploration of humanity was squandered.
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Derek
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:53am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Absolute nonsense...absolutely entertaining nonsense...absolutely 4-star absurd makes-no-sense-but-who-cares incredible nonsense. They did split-screen! The camera woooooshed in between ships! There were fighter battles! It was awesome. It was in no way thoughtful or meaningful, but it sure was fun.
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Gerry
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:45am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: All Good Things...

Thank you for your review. A pleasure to read. I loved this episode, when originally screened, as well as on the few times I've re-watched it. The final scene, with Picard slowly looking at his crew, nay, his family around the card table always leaves me feeling more than a little nostalgic, sentimental. Such an excellent story to finish with.
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Brian Lear
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:14am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

The finale does what its supposed to do, re-establishes the canon timeline, and it does so with typical fanfare, and typical Discovery junk-level writing--Cornwell closes the blast door from the inside and, instead of escaping under the closing door, "heroically" sacrifices herself off the show. It was a laugh out loud moment in my living room. We get extended filler sequences such as the video-retrospective of the entire season with Burnham in the superhero suit. Burnham's travel through time was, artistically interesting but it really dragged on. After a few seconds my only thought was "filler".

With each passing moment we see more and more that the Michael Burnham show, excuse me, Discovery, is miles wide but only inches deep.

The "7 signals" plot was not the uber-interesting mystery it was made out to be. It was actually just all about Michael Burnham flying around in a trick super-hero time suit saving the galaxy. Yawn. I knew that would be the case since the first episode of the season. I believe many of us were hoping the red signals would lead to some kind of fascinating exploration of space, perhaps a new ultra-powerful race. Instead, the show remained locked in the tiniest of possible universes, basically the Discovery and Michael Burnham, and those that help her move the plot forward. The entire season was an incestuous circle that never really went anywhere.

Then the writers said screw it let's start over. Ironically, using the exact thing they were trying to avoid with the serialized arc format--the much reviled reset-button. And of course, given us all ample reason to tune in for season 3.

Now that they've gifted themselves a blank slate, we'll see if they just continue the Michael Burnham show in the future, or actually give us a Star Trek show worth re-watching.

I can say that for me, personally, I hated the Michael Burnham show so much, that when she slipped into the future with the Discovery, my first thought was that I hope we never see them again and I'd rather just keep watching Pike and Spock on the Enterprise. Then I caught myself and remembered, no, prequels are bad. Let's stay in the future. But...but...I just don't know how much more Michael Burnham I can take.
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The Gorn
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:08am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@ mosley
@ Baron Samedi

Well put!

@ Eric

I, too, had the exact same feeling that this was the finale of the ill-conceived Star Trek: Disastery. Oh, they're going to mention it here and there in some spin-off shows.

There seems to be yet another big turmoil going on behind the scenes. Apparently, CBS and Paramount are trying to reunite after the demise of Moonves, most everything is put on halt and the licensees of the Star Trek franchise are up in arms about the underwhelming merch sales of the JarJarTrek films & show.

If true, this indicates a major shift in the future endeavors of the Star Trek franchise, meaning that they're being forced to bring their designs and story lines much closer to the established mighty canon (and away from JarJar & BadReboot).

So yes, a Pike/Enterprise show seems much more likeable & profitable in the long run and hardly anybody would miss Mary Sue B.
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Jeanne
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 11:26pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

I was very down with this until the ending--i just didn't need Spock, of all people, to establish some wacky anti-truth conspiracy of silence treason regulation just to explain why Kirk never asked Spock about Burnham on screen or why spore drives aren't standard model. And ending on the NCC-1701 folks--even though I get it, we're saying goodbye and closing loops, and this season was all about drawing on the TOS goodwill bank as a means of rebuilding trust--feels like too much fan service at the expense of the folks we should really be caring about here: the only real character stuff not involving a beloved TOS character we got here is from Georgiou and Culber. Michael going to Jupiter and beyond the infinite was good, but I'm glad she's clear of this Messianic chapter of her life and that the show can maybe make her a developed human character in S3, someone with interests rather than just a ton of gravitas?

I give this three stars for competence marred by grin-and-bear-it continuity checkbook balancing. S2 overall had some major flaws, but still a clear step up on S1--probably somewhere in the midlevel VOY range, as seasons go? I really hope S3 has the guts to be episodic for a while, to let us get to know these folks, and to start to build out a sensible and coherent strange new world for the group--my worst nightmare is that wherever the ship is going resembles Voyager's featureless, textureless Delta quadrant more than something new and fun and star trekish. More morality plays, character episodes, and sense of confidence rather than insane anxiety of influence going forward, please and thanks?
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Greg M
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 11:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi

No, but I like the thought.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 11:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

Funny think I've just thought about:

This the second time this season Kelly and Bortus are on a planet together playing Rambo. See, that's what happens when you give weapons to Gilliac trash.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 11:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow

Haven't gotten around to seeing the episode yet, so I'm avoiding the comments at the moment.

I just wanted to mention that the episode titles of ORV and DSC mesh together really well this week:

Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow
Such Sweet Sorrow
(Bonus points for both episode titles having 3 words starting with the same letter)

That was your random thought for the day.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go hide under a spoiler-proof rock. Chat with all of you soon, shortly.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 10:57pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

@Greg M.
("Greg M"? Are you Gordon Malloy's ancestor and Laura's boyfriend, by any chance?)

"So we get 2 3.5 star reviews in a row. Is Jammer turning around his feelings about Orville as a whole?"

I think it's more of Jammer believing the Orville is improving. I don't think his view of the previous episodes has changed.

Anyway, I'm not really surprised he gave this one a high score. It wasn't just a good episode. It was an episode that was good in exactly the ways that Jammer tends to appreciate.
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RandomThoughts
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 10:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Through the Looking Glass

Hello Everyone!

@Mike

While they never really say (that I can recall), I have thought perhaps if they were mining asteroids, then a space station would be a good place to break it down. But not if the mining was on a planet or a moon (unless the atmosphere was totally hostile).

Regards... RT
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DW
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 10:43pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek V: The Final Frontier

I hate this move so much. I've been rewatching all the classic Trek movies, and was hoping I might discover that this one was better than I had remembered after not having seen it for years. Nope. It was just as irredeemably terrible as I remember.

Jammer said the humor reminded him of the Three Stooges, I was reminded of the slapstick gags straight out of Wile E Coyote Loony Toons episodes. (Especially with those rocket boot scenes.) I'd say that the Uhura dance wasn't nearly as embarrassing as those ugly, unflattering, brown clothes they made the actors wear which showed-off all of their middle-aged paunch and flab. Seriously, nobody took a look at that footage and asked for a wardrobe change? They all look so much better in their Starfleet uniforms. In comparison to the rest of the original Trek movies, everything about this movie looks so cheap and ugly like something from a low budget TV episode instead of film.

I feel like a person could go on forever criticizing ST V. I don't want to waste everybody's time by doing that, but I did want to point out one other particular moment from the move that made no sense. When the ship arrives at Sha Ka Ree, it's this barren waste of rock and sand, but everybody stares in wonderment like we're viewing paradise and the music swells like we're supposed to be taking in this absolute beauty and majesty that is nowhere onscreen. Bizarre.

I was trying to think about how the movie could have been salvaged and improved. I think the main problem is that the script is so meandering and unfocused. We are just sort of bounced around from random scene to scene until way late into the movie when Sybok finally reveals his plan to find Sha Ka Ree. (And even then I don't think he mentions God at all.) God only comes up when the characters come face to face with the entity on the planet. But this was the only single part of this movie where I felt there was some potential, the part where Sybok finally realizes he's been duped and he commits a final heroic act of trying to save Kirk, Spock, and McCoy by turning on "God." I felt like all of ST V should have been building toward that climactic moment.

So, my ideas about how the movie could have been vastly improved:

1. Do major revisions by cutting all of the many extraneous scenes that serve no purpose such as all of the Yosemite camping stuff. (Introduce us to the Enterprise crew at the space dock instead.) Get rid of most of the Nimbus III opening scenes, the assault on Nimbus III scenes, most of the footage of the chase and escape scenes, etc.

2. Now use all the movie time gained by axing the pointless material and give Sybok a major role on par with that of Khan in ST II. Develop the Sybok character by inserting more scenes that flesh out his mission and motivation. If Sybok seeks God, then ST V should have been about that from the very opening scene. (I would have shown Sybok communicating with God in that very first scene.) Show scenes where Sybok wrestles with the idea of whether or not his faith and mission are true. Similarly have scenes where the Enterprise crew all have to individually wrestle with the idea that maybe Sybok really is a prophet of God.

3. Instead of introducing "God" only at the very end of the movie, it would have been much more effective to have had multiple scenes interspersed throughout the movie that show Sybok communicating with "God" in visions. (Sybok could also manifest these visions to the Enterprise crew and others to help convince them.) Doing that would have better helped win the audience over to Sybok's side, and have given Sybok and his quest more of an air of credibility. And all of this could have more effectively set us up at the end for the turn where "God" turns out to not be what we were expecting.

(The visions approach also would have made more sense (at least to me) than the idea that Sybok turns people into mindless followers by taking away their secret pain. In order to believe people would follow Sybok unconditionally if he took away their pain, you have to imagine that everyone is so emotionally crippled by some traumatic incident that they can barely function. But, even if characters like Bones or Sulu have memories of bad things, we don't see that these bad things from their past overwhelm them to the point where they don't keep living out their lives.)

Anyway, those are my thoughts on how ST V could have been a much better movie. Give the plot a tighter focus, give Sybok much more of a focus and role.
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mosley
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 10:38pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow

for any person that has watched a sufficient amount of trek, this plot was entirely predictable.
kind of awkward, too. macfarlane really struggles with deep character material. whenever its not standard captain stuff or standard sad guy whos still in love stuff, its a bit out of his range.
obviously, the premise is pretty absurd and time travel never makes sense.
overall, the episode was nothing to write home about, really...

...and i loved it. i dont know what it is with the orville, but it just tickles the right nerves for me. i do think that at the end of the day, its the characters. and the universe building. it just works, somehow, against all odds.

oh, and then theres that final scene. now THAT was bold and extremely unexpected, even if youve watched a lot of trek (maybe especially then).
will that have consequences or will this just be put away in a "oh well, triggered a different timeline we will only hear about again as a season 4 episode 7 gimmick"? who knows.

i must say, i dont care which one it will be. it was a surprise plot twist that worked. personally i find that in this netflix age of bingewatch-optimized shows that try to drown you in WTF surprise plot twists, they rarely do, so whatever the consequences, i like it. very much.

with discovery season 2 at least getting closer to growing a riker beard and the orville, i must say that these are good days for scifi series nerds. two nice series to watch on a regular basis. almost feels like 90s DS9/voyager days. so...more, please :-)
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