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Springy
Mon, Dec 17, 2018, 6:55am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Destiny

Wow, that's some discussion you guys have going here, about Gods and religion and such. Perhaps you have answered my "Big" question about these Prophet episodes, "What's fun about that?"

Wish I had the time and attention span to dive into this deep pool. Maybe after the holidays. I'm sure DS9 will provide more opportunities. But for now, I'm immersed in Earthbound religious celebratory practices.

The Bajorans should have some Santa Claus equivalent. A fun and magical representation that participates in their holy days somehow. Or maybe some sorta-Jesus equivalent, anyhow. A Prophet-alien sent to walk among them to experience linear time and such.
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Jer Jer
Mon, Dec 17, 2018, 4:54am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S6: Aquiel

Another lame "Geordi falls in love" episode.

First he's obsessed with a hologram of a cold-ass bitch scientist.

Now he's perving on a young woman, going through her diaries...
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Dec 17, 2018, 2:11am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

That's not what happened.

The only true portion of what Jammer said is this:

"An argument broke out in this thread earlier which devolved into two users sniping at each other for about two dozen posts"

That immensely silly argument was deleted, and rightly so.

Afterwards, one of the users (me) wrote a reply in a different tone. In that comment I've also thanked Jammer for his deletion of the silly argument mentioned earlier.

This comment of mine was promptly deleted.

I've tried to post it again, *while promising Jammer that this will be my last post on the matter*, and it got promptly deleted again.

I've wrote Jammer an e-mail saying that it isn't fair to let someone accuse me of belittiling people without allowing me one measly post in which to defend myself. In response he banned my IP.

I will re-iterate:

When Jammer said "enough!", I was happy to comply.

All I asked was to be allowed to write a single post in my defense, in response to the other guy's accusations. Or alternatively, that the attacking post be deleted. Is that such an unreasonable request?

BTW I'm still banned (still forced to use a proxy).

And I'm willing to bet that this post of mine is also going to be deleted the minute that Jammer sees it. God forbid that you learn the full story, rather than his one-sided description of it.

At any rate if this gets deleted, I'm just going to post it again. Don't worry. I will not disrupt your discussions in any way. I'll simply make sure that a single copy of this post exists at all times, since the people here have the right to know what's going on.

P.S.
I'm really sorry for all this mess. All this could have easily been avoided, had Jammer actually bothered to read the posts he deleted. I'm still quite shocked at what he did. And I'm still hopeful that he will come to his senses after a good night sleep.
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Jammer
Mon, Dec 17, 2018, 1:14am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

Dear users,

An argument broke out in this thread earlier which devolved into two users sniping at each other for about two dozen posts. I asked both users to stop, warned them that continued sniping would result in suspension, and deleted all the irrelevant comments, none of which had anything to do with Star Trek. When one of the users continued to post about the matter, I took the unusual step of temporarily banning the user's IP address for not heeding the warning. The user then bypassed my IP ban despite saying he would leave the board.

I am going to bed because it is late and I have to work in the morning. If there is garbage on this thread in the morning relating to what was fair, unfair, who started what, lamenting injustice, etc., my response is simply this: I am not interested in debating it. Talk about Star Trek or stop wasting everyone's time.

Bandwidth wasted on who started a silly online spat is for third-graders. It will be deleted when I see it. Period.

I apologize for whatever irrelevance may be here in my absence. I will clean it up eventually. I just ask that everyone act like adults. Thanks.
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Jammer
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 11:52pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

Will the two of you stop trying to get the last word? This is third-grade behavior and not for this board. Consider this your warning before I escalate to banning IP addresses.
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Sean Hagins
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 10:03pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Unimatrix Zero, Part II

I'll say this again, this would have made a lot more sense if at least 1 in 10 drones were affected by Unimatrix Zero. One in a million is ridiculous-barely worth the Queen's time
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Sean Hagins
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 9:36pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S6: Unimatrix Zero, Part I

I'm usually more than willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt and tell people to lighten up, but this episode is awful! I agree about the addition of a Borg Queen being the beginning of the end for the Borg, but in this episode too, there is a Borg Cube that is supposed to be even stronger than the standard one, so Voyager should have been a fly on a windshield. Instead, it fights for awhile exchanging fire and then flees. NO! The Borg should have adapted right away to their weapons (and taken little or no damage) or at least have tractored Voyager so it couldn't get away!

Also, if only 1 in a million drones are "infected" with Unimatrix Zero, what's the point in Voyager risking everything to start a civil war (or excuse me, a "resistance")? Picture this-a small town in your area fighting against the world! That is the 1 million to one odds-about 6000 people vs the world! And they aren't even together, but they are spread out thru the whole collective! It makes no sense!

Also, the Unimatrix Zero fights to me made no sense. I would guess the sleeping Borg who are individuals can imagine anything they want in that world (like the Klingon having a Bat-leth) Why didn't take picture having weapons? Bullet weapons the Borg can't adapt to? I mean the Borg never adapted to the Batleth, so there you have it!

Also, the Borg seem weaker physically here with Tuvok and even the Captain knocking down a few. From First Contact, we saw that no organic being was even remotely as strong as them-only Data can best them in hand to hand combat (I don't mean Worf with the Bat-leth-I mean just blugeoning them with the phaser rifle).

Yea, Voyager made the Borg a much weaker villain, and it really hurt them in my opinion. In my opinion, the Shatnerverse has the best end for the Borg (William Shatner may have been an egotist in his writings (Kirk saves the day while everyone else marvels at how awesome he is), but his ideas on the lore of Star Trek to me hold true.

Ok. Rant over-I'm going to watch Part II now and see if any of these issues were resolved (I'm rewatching the entire series for the first time since they first came out, and back then I missed a lot of the last couple seasons as I got too busy to watch TV regularly)
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Springy
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 9:29pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Prophet Motive

Not a true stinker, but close.

It's not a good sign when I'm wondering how much is left of an ep, while hoping it's almost over.

Mostly quite boring.
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Mertov
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 9:29pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

LOL.. What is actually entertaining is when someone who makes it a habit to insult, belittle, and box other Trek fans, pretends to take the higher moral ground..
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grumpy_otter
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 9:20pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Vulcan Hello / Battle at the Binary Stars

I wanted to catch up on the Big Bang Theory so I signed up for the free week of CBS All Access. Once I finished Big Bang, I looked through their other offerings. I have until the 20th to cancel without being charged. Oh boy--they have CSI! That might make the service worthwhile! Wait, what? They only have three seasons of it? 1, 2 and 15? Oh, well I could go back and watch the first seasons of Big Bang! Oh, they only have the current season? Well, maybe they have some good movies--Oh--they have 9 movies total? Okay. Well, they have all the Star Treks, looks like--and so does Netflix.

So they are really depending on Discovery to keep this service afloat? Is that it? Okay, I guess I'll give it a shot.

I am one of those who saw the first picture of the rebooted Klingons and groaned. It's just that I don't get it. If you want to make a Star Trek series, why do you want to completely change one of the integral species? Is there a reason? What could it be?

Well, I was right. Discovery's Klingons were plastic and awkward. The new "vision" turned them into emotionless robots that looked like silver goons. Not to mention that they all wore the exact same uniform--a sort of metal necklace thing? Okay.

Their tooth appliances turned all their voices into slurred blabbering. Compare Kern and his crisp orders to the crew and these yammering . . . things. Oh, and the subtitles were in all caps? Okayyyyyy . . .

I almost cried during the first two episodes thinking that the unification of the 24 houses could have been such an epic and moving story because we KNOW the Klingons. We've seen Gowron battle to keep control of the High Council, we've seen the Duras sisters and their machinations--we know these stories are to come. The way the Discovery crew portrayed the Klingons . . . have they even SEEN Star Trek?

I'd heard people complain about the lens flares--after I got annoyed by them (at minute 17 of the first episode) I decided to start counting them, just for fun. In 10 minutes, (to minute 27) there were 32. Then I stopped counting and just cringed at the rest of them in the episode.

Okay, so the characters. Michelle Yeoh is fucking awesome and I loved her. But I knew she wasn't going to be on the show for long so, meh. I tried not to get invested in her character, but she was the only one I loved right from the start. I could feel her strength and her underlying humanity--she was very Picard-like.

Michael. Ugh. I kind of don't really like the Vulcans much, so I steeled myself not to get too judgy about that. But, hell. Her acting is not as bad as Sisko's, but Wil Wheaton once said that to portray an emotionless character like Data or Spock takes a great deal of skill and subtlety. Michael didn't have it--she was just wooden. I didn't like her at all, and flashbacks in the first two episodes--especially when they interrupt exciting moments--are not a way to endear you to a character. Back stories are better presented in small doses, over time.

Oh, there's Sarek! I felt like they were screaming "WE ARE REALLY STAR TREK BECAUSE THERE IS SAREK AND HE IS SPOCK'S DAD!"

I had lots of other notes but most of them just boil down to – why did you call it Star Trek? I'll be canceling before the 20th.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 9:18pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

By the way, Grumpy_Otter, as you can see, I've learned from my past mistakes, and I'm mostly ignoring people who proved - time and again - that they aren't willing to bother with the basic rules of civil conversation.
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Springy
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 8:53pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Destiny

Cross cultural misunderstanding.

Gilora, a scientist, is so upset over O'Brien's rejection that she abandons working on the project to save the wormhole. Wow. That's one emotionally fragile Cardassiannie.

I just don't much care for the Bajoran stuff, and Sisko-Emissary. I don't know how to express it beyond . . . if I can paraphrase Tom Hanks' character, Josh, in "Big,": "I don't get it. What's fun about that?"

Very meh.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 8:52pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

@Grumpy_otter

"On another topic--My first comment on this site was in 2007, so I think I have the cred to comment on its evolution. Yeah, it used to be more civil, I think. Of course, back then we used to get 30 comments on an episode and now we get hundreds, so that is to be expected."

I don't think it's just the sheer number of people. There are at least three additional reasons this is happening:

1. Discovery is genuinely dividing the fans in a way that is completely unprecedented in the history of Star Trek.

2. Many (though not all) fans of Discovery aren't fans of classic Trek at all. For them Discovery is just a cool sci fi show, and they are mostly unaware of the decades-long legacy of the franchise. So we have two groups of people who are coming from completely different points-of-views. This leads to misunderstandings, and - given the emotional stakes associated with being a "fan" of something - these misunderstandings leads to conflict.

3. It is known that TPTB are actually paying people to create this kind of mayhem on trek-related discussion boards. After all, it is in their best interest to paint people like you and me as negative crazy people who do nothing but complain. And while this place is relatively clean in this respect, I'm quite sure that at least of few of these troll-shills have found their way here is well.

Anyway, I agree that this place is still the best place to discuss Star Trek.

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grumpy_otter
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 8:05pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

@ OmicronThetaDeltaPhi


“nothing that was produced after 2005 should be called "Star Trek" in the first place. It doesn't look like Trek. It doesn't feel like Trek. It doesn't obey the "laws of nature" that were established for Trek. It doesn't have the aliens and technology that's normally associated with Trek. It isn't consistent with the established in-universe history of Trek.”

I finally watched the first two episodes of DIS, DSC, Disco, STD – whatever they are calling it – and in preparation for writing my own review, I skimmed through most of the comments there on the first ep review, and then came here. Partway through that process I saw you and Jammer having a spat, so I went to your comment thread and read most of what you've said in the last two years. (BTW, I'm glad you changed your mind about leaving the site)

lol

Yeah, I'm bored and have some time on my hands.

Let me just say—we are of one mind.

All the Star Trek up to 2005 was set in the Star Trek universe that Gene Roddenberry created. They bent some rules, they sometimes strayed, but they never left that universe.

Everything since 2005 has kicked that vision apart and created its own. Which is not to say they are all bad, or lacking in value—they just aren't Star Trek. I gave up on DS9 because I got tired of the religious blather and I couldn't find any characters to connect with (that's very important to me) but I would never say it wasn't Star Trek, because it was still in Roddenberry's universe.

I can understand how someone who had never seen and loved and lived Star Trek might like Discovery. I didn't.

On another topic--My first comment on this site was in 2007, so I think I have the cred to comment on its evolution. Yeah, it used to be more civil, I think. Of course, back then we used to get 30 comments on an episode and now we get hundreds, so that is to be expected.

I will say that this is still the best place to discuss Star Trek—I think I'll just stick to discussing the pre-2005 Trek.

Now I think I'll go rewatch TOS.
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Mertov
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 7:42pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

""For 40 years, Star Trek showed us different kinds of people (and aliens) actually working together and respecting one another. For me, it's not just a "respite" or a form of escapism, but an actual roadmap for a better future. I'm even using some of Trek's principles in my own personal life (and you'll be surprised how far this can take you even in the grossly imperfect world of the early 21st century).

I guess that the people for whom Trek was always nothing more than entertainment will never understand this. What can I say? Lucky them.""

Speaking of high horse...

Because people who like anything past those 40 years (ex: those who may like Discovery) would be an inferior version of Star Trek fan -- ones who only considered Star Trek as entertainment and would "never understand" what you may. Nice way to presume, judge and box a ton of people together. Let's of course not neglect to throw in the mocking and condascending "lucky them" in there..

It's not a surprise though, nothing you haven't done before. You were also the one who implied that people to whom Discovery represented the "lowest common denominator."
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Davidw
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 5:27pm (UTC -6)
Re: Star Wars: Attack of the Clones

I guess it is more interesting to try to find the movies good points rather than bad, so, sure the Emporer's plotting in and if itself is great.

If only the Game of Thrones people were in charge, you might have gotten a tolerable movie out of it.
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Davidw
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 5:18pm (UTC -6)
Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace

Excellent review. I always thought RLM to be the gold standard review, but this is quite good.
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Davidw
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 4:05pm (UTC -6)
Re: Star Wars: Return of the Jedi

This movie confuses character development and story with plot and effects. A rescue mission is entertaining when we like the characters and the characters are developed. But the character development was in other movies, not this one.

we care about Luke and his father but mainly because of the character development in the previous movies.

So there's a lot of cool visual effects and wonderful practical effects so it may disguise the fact that this movie by itself is so empty-headed. And really blowing up the death Star again?

why not just have Luke save his father and his father turns in the second movie?
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Davidw
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 3:47pm (UTC -6)
Re: Star Wars: A New Hope

perhaps this is heresy, but I would like someone to explain the principles of why they like this movie and then apply it to any other movie.

I have never seen it successfully done.

Could anyone really imagine people liking this movie if they released it today and no one ever heard of it before?
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Booming
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 1:57pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

@PatrickD: So you were raped and nevertheless use that word in such a trivial way?! You do realize why these kinds of metaphors are used and still use them?!
Why?
I am to part of the LGBT community and grew up in a rural area which wasn't great to say the least.
And that brings me to Omicron. What a great way to defend anal rape metaphors. First they took our anal rape metaphors and I said nothing. But not you my friend. No, you will fight for your right to never grow, to never learn and to use what ever despicable language you might fancy.
And when you whine about political correctness what you are actually saying is: Please do not point out something that could make me feel uncomfortable. So it is actually you who wants other people to shut up. Especially homosexuals and transsexuals who get beaten and killed to this very day.
So thank you for telling people to stop pointing out the inherent intolerance towards minorities that is still a very important part of the societies we life in.

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Peter G.
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 12:42pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Waltz

@ Aaron,

"What would be much more interesting was if Dukat really WASN'T a villain of the occupation. That would be a fascinating twist and a breath of fresh air for his character."

Putting aside your objections about the way this story was told, what you suggest simply couldn't happen. The reason isn't because it would be better or worse TV, but simply because it would be a lie. You can't be a Nazi mass murderer and then be truthfully portrayed as not being a villain of the occupation. Did you murder and enslave people? Yes? Then you did very bad things. Redemption is possible, but the issue in this episode isn't redemption, but about finally coming fully to terms with what he did and admitting it with no lies, facade, self-delusion, or attempt to game the situation. His ego is removed from the equation and he brazenly admits his wrongdoing, and that deep down he doesn't really regret it. It's Dukat at his most honest, and despite him toying with us for years about pretending to repent, he never really did: it was all a political game to him, one which he no doubt believed at times. For him to finally be cast as not being a villain would simply be a lie, to us the audience. What would have been possible, of course, is admitting what he'd done and wishing he hadn't done it. But instead he turns the other way and embraces what he'd done. It may seem 'super-villain' stuff to say "I should have killed them all", but truthfully that's at the heart of some kinds of people; rather than dig out of the hole they're in they'll reach right for the bottom. It's not in the slightest bit cartoonish because there are people literally like this in life, all around us. Should it really be a surprise that Dukat is one of them? Not only isn't it 2-dimensional, but it's the most true-to-life version of him we'd seen until this point.

What may be a letdown to some views is that there was no hope for him at this point to redeem himself, or at least to give us the uncertainly of where his heart truly was. I understand that concern, as it's fun in a TV-way to have a character who's entertaining and you don't know which way he'll jump. But in the end it seems they wanted him to reveal who he really was, and it's this. It's what he always way; the rest was masks, and for those who believed his self-delusions that's just a sign of how tempting it can be to buy into someone's self-image if they're charismatic enough. Interestingly enough, we get a similar transformation for Odo over the series where he starts with defenses and masks, and when they're pulled off we actually see that he, too, is something of a Nazi. But in Odo's case he's learned enough that he rebels against this tendency in himself and wants to be something else. But he could have theoretically gone the way of the rest of his people to as well, and between these two characters we see a not dissimilar starting point (having done bad things in the Occupation, being overly concerned about their public image) and very contrasting ending points. This is great storytelling to me, and also a great view of where choices in life can lead you.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 12:34pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

By the way, regarding DS9 and the Trek philosophy:

I personally love DS9 for the way it pushes the boundaries of Roddenbery's vision. Yes, there's some pretty questionable stuff in there, but I still think that DS9 was - at it's core - very Trek-like (they almost lost me with the S31-does-genocide thing, but they won me back with the way the war was resolved in the last episode)

I can tell you this:

I've introduced my wife to Star Trek and we're watching all the episodes of all series (up to Enterprise) together. It was during DS9 that we've had our deepest most interesting discussions about the issues on the show.

TNG may be a happier and purer viewing experience, but DS9 is actually the show - in my view - that has the courage to confront the difficult questions that stem from the Trekkian philosophy. In short: If you want respite, watch TNG. If you want to get into the details of how to maintain the dream in less-than-ideal circumstancecs, watch DS9 ;-)

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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 11:58am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

I hear you, Patrick.

I just "love" it when people put artificial political correctness before having actual respect to minorities and people who are different. You say one wrong word, and people start making assumptions and accusing you of being a racist or a homophobe or god-knows-what-else.

I'm an heterosexual, but I'm ... ehm... "different" in other ways, and I've been getting this kind of cr*p all my life. People seem to be far more eager to point fingers at others for being intolerant, then to actually being tolerant themselves. And in recent years, this ludicrous game of political correctness has reached record heights of absurdity (which, unfortunately, also bled into the latest iterations of our favorite franchise).

I guess that's one of the reasons that Classic Trek's utopian vision is so important to me. For 40 years, Star Trek showed us different kinds of people (and aliens) actually working together and respecting one another. For me, it's not just a "respite" or a form of escapism, but an actual roadmap for a better future. I'm even using some of Trek's principles in my own personal life (and you'll be surprised how far this can take you even in the grossly imperfect world of the early 21st century).

I guess that the people for whom Trek was always nothing more than entertainment will never understand this. What can I say? Lucky them.
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PatrickD
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 10:54am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

Before people start piling on me, let me tell you a story. I was sexually molested for YEARS when when I was a child by a MALE. Unwanted, full-on sodomy. Second of all, I'm a bisexual, so I know a thing or two about anal sex. During that extremely long patch of time when I was recovering from what was done to me, Star Trek pretty much was the thing that kept my sanity together for a good decade and a half. The stories and philosophy was a respite from the awfulness of real life. So, when I see this beautiful creation that has meant so much to myself and millions of others being turned into a mindless, shoot-em-up cash cow, I get a little defensive. So, I will use the term, "defiled" from now on. Happy, everyone?
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Booming
Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 10:27am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

PatrickD: I'm baffled by people like you. On one hand you moan about Star Trek not being that idealistic science fiction tale anymore and in the very same post defend the use of a rape metaphor. It is also a homophobic and misogynistic metaphor.
(And because you, of course, will not understand why. Here the explanation: Have you ever thought about why especially heterosexual men like to use anal sex/rape metaphors? And why these are always aimed at portraying the act of getting fucked in the ass as something inherently bad? Because that is something that a heterosexual men will almost never experience while it is not uncommon for women and the norm for homosexual men to do it. Let me make it clear that I'm not telling you to not use it. I am just telling you what you are when you do.)
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