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Quincy
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 1:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

I really enjoyed this episode for the most part. Even though they had to mar the ending with more maudlin displays of worship from Spock right when time is of the essence, on the whole the ending was a lot better than I was expecting. I really hope there will be a season 3 and that season continues in the future with the Discovery crew. I really don't want a Pike oriented show. I didn't like Mount's portrayal of Pike, unlike most other people apparently. Strange, since I loved him on Hell on Wheels. He was way too low key for me. I remember Pike on TOS as being more aggressive than that. Sorry, not sorry. Don't want to see Star Trek: Pike next season.

This is a golden opportunity to pick up the show in the future. I think the cast could really come into its own next season. I've got my fingers crossed that there will be a next season. If it continues, I have high hopes for the show.

Their bringing back the Doctor annoyed me. However, his love proclamation wasn't quite (by a hair) as putrid as I expected it to be. At least, he stopped treating Stamets like $#!% for no reason under the sun. I guess you kind of needed him back since they didn't do anything to develop the other doctor, who was so generic I can barely remember her and I just watched the episode.

Some other things that annoyed me. I knew Control would be defeated in some simple, lackluster fashion. There wasn't enough time left in the season for anything else. Somehow an obviously distributed A.I. that can effectively control multiple ships is defeated by taking down a single iteration of it, using a technique used on it before? Really?!? Also, Saru's sister, the sudden onset fighter pilot?! Dafuq?!? If it had properly been set up, it would've been epic. They partially laid the groundwork with the Kelpien centered episode. All we needed was some indication of the two species working together under Starfleet direction.

I thought they were going to have the Queen go with them to the future, but nope. I would prefer she go rather than that @$$#0l3 Reno or whatever her name is. I was starting to like her character. Sorry to see her go. However, I guess the bright side of that is I don't have to see her constantly interacting with Tilly. More Queen = more Tilly. No Queen = less Tilly?! Maybe?!?

The time suit opens up a new possibility. Even if they get rid of the time aspect, the suit can travel by means of wormholes. They could revamp to power it using nothing but dark matter, get rid of the time crystal, and retrofit Discovery to use wormhole technology for FTL instead of the Spore drive. Only problem is I think Stamets wouldn't have anything to do without the Spore Drive and I'm hoping they don't kill him off. I don't remember all of his expertise but it was mainly concerning the spore lifeforms and the drive. Although he did help in constructing the suit, so maybe he'll just be an engineer afterwards or science officer. That begs the question of why you would need Reno if Stamets can do her job?

P.S.
Jesus Christ on a crucifix. Invasion of the Thought Police much? Just... stahp with the doublespeak and doublethink. I came to talk about Discovery, a show I like and have high hopes for. Animal farmers showing up policing tone, language, and thought processes is like eye torture. Just shout in all capitals, "LANGUAGE!," like Captain America in Age of Ultron, and be done with it. It's much shorter, about as substantive, and won't derail the conversation.
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Chrome
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:38pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

This episode was both engaging and bizarre. The space battle again gave Star Trek a proper treatment of what a futuristic space conflict could be with modern visual effects. The NY Times' reviewer, Sopan Deb, pointed out how limitations in past Star Trek would lead to these unrealistic battles where the Enterprise would take two hits and be completely crippled (ex. Star Trek: Generations). Here the spectacular fire-fight where Discovery and Enterprise fought long-and-bitterly seemed just right for such powerful ships, although I agree with others that there was too much Star Wars in it.

Contrary to others, I really liked how the signals were linked to the storyline and thought it was cool to have each scene recapped as we saw just what the logic behind the Red Angel was. I'm guessing the showrunners are fans of Super Metroid, because the whole scene with time jumps and the montage beautifully matched that game's intro. As Axiom pointed above, there were a few moments of genuine wonder as Michael looked into the great abyss of the wormhole and made her first jump. This scene was just incredible. Pure dynamite.

Of interest also was Spock's role in all this. Others have criticized that "only women can fix things" in this show, but I hasten to point out that Spock contributed much to Michael's victory. First, Spock figured out that she needed to jump to the past. Second, he pushed her onward after she realized he was going to lose her. And finally, she helped cover up the Discovery's tracks so its work to fix the timeline would remain unhindered. There was also some good dialogue with Michael telling Spock to find someone who was different than him and try to seek a bond with them. This was a very obvious nod to the Spock-Kirk relationship, but it's a sweet setup that explains why Kirk and Spock work well together, without taking anything away from what we already know about them.

What was less good were the Kelpians and Klingons coming out of nowhere to help the two struggling Federation ships. I think it makes sense on some level that they'd be there and I like the idea that we get very different peoples working together to fight a common enemy. However, there's so many head scratchers - like how can L'Rell work with Tyler in plain sight without casting serious suspicions on her role as Emperor? Also, how are the Kelpians suddenly working together with their oppressors to go to battle? I can sort of piece together how these things could work on my own, but I would've liked the show to do it better.

The bizarre thing here is how this episode ends. Everyone is supposed to just forget everything about the Discovery and spore drive because Pike and Spock say so? That seems a little too convenient. What's more is, this undoes a lot of the work that Discovery's writers have done to bring us here. If they were planning all along to take us to the distant future from the start, why try to supplant themselves in the past and subject themselves to these historic canon messes? It just seems weird for the writers to remove their own contribution to the show and I hope they resolve this more in later seasons. I would've liked even just one scene in the future with Discovery letting us know what they plan to do from here. But all we're left with is questions.

Still, this was leaps and bounds better than "Will You Take My Hand?" and there's some cool potential for Discovery and the other shows coming out the gate. Will the next season explore the future with the Discovery, or will we take some time off from them and see how other things develop in Star Trek? It's very puzzling and a little silly--and yet I'm game for it.
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Meister
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: Hero Worship

@Dave We ARE smart. We make things go!
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Meister
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:20pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: Hero Worship

8/10

+1 for a Data episode although I don't think taste buds are part of emotions. TNG missed an opportunity to look at many things that make us go: senses, perceptions, hormones, instincts, thinking, emotions and their interaction. It stayed so simple most of the time.

Also +1 for Troi being a good counsellor. That's two in a row. But where is Alexander in this episode. He may have been a good playmate for Timothy.
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Peter G,
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@ Chrome,

""I seem to remember that in Q Who the Enterprise was tossed to Beta"

Nope."

Huh. I went back and checked, and right you are. Scratch that, then!
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Peter G.
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@ axiom,

"To reiterate, for what I hope to be the final time, my critique is not that we must avoid criticism of the ways in which Michael's character has been written, simply on the basis of race or gender or poltiical climate. What I am naming here is what I see to represent an unhelpful (and at times thoroughly anti-intellectual and toxic) mode of critique which has pervaded this forum, and many other places of discussion, since DIS was aired."

As someone who hasn't posted about the episodes in DSC season 2 but have read them all, I can't see what you claim is happening. The posters have gotten into many arguments about form, but in terms of the actual critique or praise of the episodes I find that the vast majority of posts have been fairly neutral in terms of including anything inflammatory. While I wish those on each side of the debate could get along better, I see almost no signs of toxic (i.e. racist, sexist, or even very rude) commentary about Burnham's character. I do see a lot of discussion *about* racism and sexism, but very little in the way of maligning her for being a woman, being of color, or for any other attributes than her performance. To the extent that people complain about the writing of Burnham this has nothing at all to do with SMG. I'm reminded of some discussions in the past where criticisms of the inconsistent writing of Captain Janeway were often taken of criticisms of her personally. Not the same thing.

Is it possible you've seen so much toxic commentary elsewhere that you're carrying over your sense of it from those sites to this one? I don't really see it here. Actually there are some far more toxic posts in the posts on other series at times, compared with those for DSC (for instance arguments about liberal vs conservative values and which can be more readily found in Trek).

I tent to agree with others that overall the quality of the posting on Jammer's site is pretty darn good, with the occasional crossing a line.
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Chrome
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 11:55am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

"I seem to remember that in Q Who the Enterprise was tossed to Beta"

Nope.
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Peter G.
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 11:43am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@ Chrome,

"Pretty sure the Borg come from the Delta Quadrant, and from the 15th century, no less."

If I'm not mistaken they're also in the Beta Quardrant. I seem to remember that in Q Who the Enterprise was tossed to Beta, not Delta. I know that in VOY they specified that the Borg's 'home base' or whatever is in the Delta, but they seem to have ships in the Beta quadrant as well (whereas, by contrast, they seem to be completely absent from the Alpha and Gamma).
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Black winter day
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 11:12am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

Hi, Jammer. The 2 moclans smuggling the baby initially lied to Bortus, claiming that they are taking her to Retepsia, hiding the fact that the female colony exists.
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wolfstar
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:59am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

There is so much to discuss about this season and this finale, and I don't think people should take axiom's bait, otherwise yet another episode thread will be derailed into an endless argument based on a bad faith supposition that anyone strongly criticizing the show (or anyone who sounds like they're angry or frustrated at the show) must have underlying misogynist/racist motives. There's always gonna be a small minority of people like that, but it's really not the case on this site and on this debate thread, as The Companion points out. I know from this site and others that there are lots of female and POC viewers who are highly, vociferously critical of the Burnham character and the series in general (because guess what, they want a good character and a well-written show just like everyone else), and even many viewers who like the character and performance but have grown tired of the way the show constantly forces everything to revolve around her. On top of which, a lot of the viewers who have been really critical of Discovery's first two seasons have DS9 as their favorite show - you know, the series where the two lead characters were a black single father and a female former terrorist. So I really think people need to stop and think before trying to equate strong criticism of Burnham and Discovery with some kind of bigotry, based on scant evidence. Especially as the two examples of "dog-whistle rhetoric" that axiom points out are both in relation to the show's plot ("S01 was just fucking miserable" and "[the finale was] All flash, no substance. [...] Utterly devoid.").
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Paul G
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:56am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

The second half of the season didn't work for me. Lots of padding, nothing interesting about the 'mysterious' signals. Control was a weak and boring villain. The emotional moments were badly timed. We didn't see enough Saru. Nothing that I havent seen a thousand times before.

The first half of the season was ok though. I hope season 3 brings something new.
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Lupe
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:53am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: Time's Arrow, Part I

' the Twin character'

...I meant of course, 'the Twain charcter'
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Lupe
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:52am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: Time's Arrow, Part I

Just watched this for the umpteenth time. I'm afraid the Twin character gets less and less bearable with each repeat viewing. Why people at that party actually stood around putting up with him is beyond my understanding. At least they didn't try to do Oscar Wilde.

From the opinions expressed over the years I have determined that the classic period for TNG lasted for seven seconds during the closing credits in an episode near the end of season three, but I can't work out which episode.
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Chrome
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:44am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

So, ahem, in light of this episode marking a completely different direction for the show (no spoilers, I promise, heck I don't even know what will come) the goodbyes here make a lot of sense. Sure the farewells are unearned, paint-by-numbers, trite, derivative, overly-long, but--they are necessary as show markers. I imagine after five more years of this show, people will look back on this episode and say how great it was to have a moment where we reflected on everything that had come before.

Furthermore, I still have PTSD from season one's finale where they needed to wrap a bunch of things up and tried to do it in one episode. "Bad" is too polite a word for what we got. Jammer's cynicism aside, (hey man, they announced the airdates back in December and you still signed up!) I liked having this extra episode to set everything up and prepare us for the finale.

That said, this episode was good in concept but was not very well executed. For example, I would've liked a narrative bridge that put Po into the main show. She's an interesting character, why not give her a full introduction in the show proper? Probably the most effective thing were the goodbye letters the lesser cast members were composing, but they were all too brief. Nevertheless, one could feel that something epic was about to occur and I appreciate the energy here. So, let's just call this a serviceable build up.
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Booming
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:34am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@SlackerInc
"It doesn't completely redeem the earlier bad episodes, because I still had to sit through them" Hahahaha Sentence of the day!

@Kinematic
I don't think that axiom ever said that people should be shut down which would be impossible here anyways. Axiom said her piece and people start shouting "thought police". Who is actually against free speech here?
I'm also not completely sold on this whole "people hated wesley crusher which means any insult that is aimed at Michael Burnham has nothing to do with misogyny or racism" narrative. Just for context 1 in 8 Americans (13%) still believe that men are better suited emotionally for politics than women (down from 50% in 1975).

"That's the real double standard." What do you mean? I only heard on Big Bang Theory that Wesley Crusher was hated. Until that I didn't know anything about it. I suppose that is true for many.

@Boura
Cornwall was top of her class in emergency lever pulling. Considering that a murder robot thingy was walking around the ship a human touch seems necessary. Can you really trust one of those Star Trek hull repair R2D2...
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Chrome
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:24am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

"Didn’t you notice the word “Beta Quadrant” at the end (the location of the 7ᵗʰ signal)? I already get Borg vibes for season 3"

Pretty sure the Borg come from the Delta Quadrant, and from the 15th century, no less.
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Snitch
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:22am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

The Discovery to never be mentioned and shown again reminded me a bit of the Ending of the Bakula Enterprise. They got the TNG holodeck treatment, none of the Enterprise/Discovery crew mattered , look at TNG/TOS instead, look its Spock and Pike, Riker and Troy!

The action and special effects scenes of the production are certainly top notch, but it seems Discovery is overly reliant on it and neglects basic story telling, especially setups and emotional arcs.

I would have preferred a less on the nose resolution for the gay couple, the doctor has to treat a lot of injured an dying people, it is depressing and heart breaking and at the end of the episode he wanders the corridors in tears, ending up at his former boyfriends door, he rings the door and they just silently embrace. that would be real character development instead of the lazy trope, "Oh you are injured, oh well sure I love you, hold on to your life!"


The writing on the show is just bad. Next season Burnham will fight the "big bad" Kevin Sorbo and his religious fascist following in Star Trek: Andromeda!

She will singlehandedly rebuild the federation (for the first three episodes then to be resolved off screen) and go on to fight the baddies of the day in an action pew pew show. At least action scenes and space battles are a strong point of Discovery.
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Galadriel
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:15am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

As expected, the critizism here generally falls into the spectrum be­tween “dis­appoin­ted”, “vitrioic” and “nuclear”. I didn’t like every­thing, and emphati­cally dis­like a lot, but there is also some­thing rea­son­able to praise.

@Karl Zimmermann “Spock telling Michael how damn special he was to him during the scene where he was stranded in the shuttle­craft was laying it on a bit thick” I agree with that, but that is Dis­cove­ry’s trade mark despite not making any sence, even for humans and less so for Vulcans. Tear-soaked fare­well scenes abound every­where, and while action se­quences are always super­fast (and con­fu­sing, more on that below), the cha­rac­ters easily find time to give longish private and emo­tio­nal speeches that drag for­ever, drenched in saucy scores that want to evoke some human con­nec­tion between the cha­rac­ters and the au­di­ence, but fails.

@Rahul “The spore drive has been destroyed along with Control and no­body is to speak of this whole thing again un­less they want to be charged with treason. I think Spock even estab­lished some kind of tem­poral di­rec­tive” If he really estab­lished such a thing, he would become the worst of­fen­der to his own rule later. Such a “Don’t meddle with Time” rule actually makes a lot of sense, but I don’t see how it extends to the spore drive, which as we have learned in “Saints of Im­per­fec­tion”) is harm­less to use, and is not in any way connected to the Control fiasco. It’s also ir­res­pon­sible from the security angle: What if the Romulans come up with some­thing similar, or even the Jem’Hadar?

@Rahul “Cornwell sacrificing herself to contain the torpedo blast was weird” Actually, non­sensi­cal (the blast door even had a glass window (or trans­parent alu­mi­num?) yet con contain an ex­plo­sion that ripped out an ⅛ slice of the saucer. More­over, logi­cally Pike should have stayed behind, because (α) Cornwell can order him (β) he has only a wheel­chair to lose and (γ) the time crystal should have pro­tected him (to avoid being called a liar).

@mosley “the hilarious plot oversight that they actually didnt need to go to the future any­more because control was de­stroy­ed” yeah, this was weird, especially since Saru knew it and could have aborted the Time Jump, or at least delayed, since even if some Con­trol was still some­where, there was no im­mediate threat to the ships. BTW, it seems odd that Dis­cov­ery was pretty much full manned when Jumping. Are there so many people willing to give up their present lives for an uncertain future?

@Baron Samedi “I feel like the Discovery writers would have made the head Xindi scientist Archer's long-lost alien step­father” I fear Saint Michael Fucking Burnham (© MadManMUC) is going to meet a descen­dant of her unborn twin sister some­where in the future.

@Brian Lear “don't feel that the show ever really convinced me that the data in that sphere could rea­son­ably be expected to allow an ad­vanced AI to obtain con­scious­ness” I can imagine that this sphere thing was a quite dif­ferent life form, one that operates more like an AI and can thus better serve as a model for an AI wanting to evolve than the com­plete­ly messed-up Humans (or Vulcans). Of couse, the ques­tion why Control wants to be­come “sentient” (whatever that means, I have never under­stood that term in any ST show) and why it would turn de­struc­tive still remains open. Perhaps, Control read the script and decided to play along.

@Brian Lear “is anybody else sick of the fact that only female characters can solve problems” No, I am not. I have grown up with an over­dose of TV that shows pro­blem-sol­ving males and damsels-in-dis­tress that I still need anti­dot (BTW, I am male). Besides, Pike and (less so) Saru have also proven capable.

@John Harmon “It really bothered me how much the show reveled in the sadism of [Leland’s] death” We see that scene from the point of view of an Evil Mirror Uni­verse Empress, who had pre­vious­ly said (‘Such Sweet Sorrow 1’, 09:00) “On the other hand, I look for­ward to hunting Leland down to the ends of the galaxy so I can watch every piece of tech­no­logy exit his skin bit by bit”. In that scene, Burnham cri­tisized her sadism, so it is strange and untrekky that she got her wish fullfilled.

@wolfstar “The only reason Burnham knows where to send the signals from... is because she did it in the first place. How does original Burnham in any time­line learn why she needs to send the signals from those points?” That onto­logic para­dox is in­herent to time travel stories. I can imagine a physi­cal mecha­nism that would pro­duce such an effect, although it needs two two co­ordi­na­tes: One in which the action takes place, and a second one in which the loop reates it­self; in the be­gi­nning, the loops are in­con­sis­tent and will play dif­ferent­ly in every itera­tion, but over (second) time, a con­sis­tent loop is reached that obeyes cau­sali­ty in the first time. By some sta­tis­tical argument, we see only the final con­ver­ged result. There are weak ana­logies for such a mecha­nism in Quantum Mechanics.

@wolfstar “Burnham has never worn this suit before. How does she fly it through space?” There was a manual attached to it, in the form of logs from Burnham sen. (“Perpe­tual In­fini­ty”, ≈15:00). Probably the suit has some pro­pul­sion, even if only navi­ga­tio­nal thrusters, other­wise Burnham sen. would not have been able to land anywhere.

@Chrome “And of course 1 million points for Control not being the Borg” Didn’t you notice the word “Beta Quadrant” at the end (the location of the 7ᵗʰ signal)? I already get Borg vibes for season 3, and I don’t like the idea. I pretty much dis­liked every­thing Borgy in VOY after the “Scorpion” two-parter (does not ex­tend to the cha­rac­ter 7of9, because I con­sider­ed her well-written), for the rea­son that I prefer my Borgs com­pe­tent and mena­cing and with fangs.

@Booming “The very same engineer probably thought: Ok, emer­gen­cy lever on the wrong side. The only thing this blast door now needs is a window” — “Georgiou highlights the problem that shows or movies who make every­thing dark often have: You start to like the bad guys/gals because they are the only ones who have fun” ☺☺☺

Some own thought will come in a separate post. Yet I have to comment on the visuals, which are both terrific and terrible at the same time. They look astounding, reak of a lot of money spent, and would make great wallpapers, but they contribute only to the coolness factor, not to the narrative. John Harmon called it “Star Wars prequel white noise”, and that is as fitting as can be.

So we have fighters now (never been seen before in the ST universe). No one ex­plains how they oper­ate, what they can do and how they come there. It not even shown whether they are manned or not (some dia­logue seems to indi­cate they are, but there is not one shot how they look like insde). The design is un­fami­liar to the viewer, and they fight an equal­ly novel foe. How am I sup­posed t see who is who? Or should I not care and just marvel at the ex­plo­sions? I fear it is the latter, and that makes me sick (“style over sub­stance”). Compare this to the epic battle se­quence in Orville’s Kaylon two-parter, which managed to look great and tell the story by it­self, for it was mostly clear what happens and what moti­va­tion the ships have to do what they do.

Alan Roi famously said in another thread that Disco is more de­mand­ing to its viewers than any other Star Trek show. Maybe he is right, and I can’t pick up visual, verbal and acous­tic clues at high enough speed. Not an English speaker, I am chal­leng­ed enough parsing the muff­led, highly con­tracted and oc­casio­nally un­gram­ma­ti­cal speech drenched in too much score. Very often, I have to rewind a scene, some­times several times, to re­parse a highly in­form­al Eng­lish sen­tence against the back­ground noise without mis­sing some in­con­spic­u­ous but im­por­tant back­ground vi­sual. For example, in a madly fast-cut se­quence some­one says “The bayonet joint on this oxy­gen sensor’s wide open” which took me three re­runs to rea­lize “sensor’s” is not a pos­se­sive case.

Or, take the open­ing se­quence that moves (with a weird shaky-cam effect) from Saru asking some­thing from Owosekun, to Owosekun ans­wer­ing (she sits next to him on the Bridge of Dis­co­ve­ry) to Pike. At that moment, my brain threw an ex­cep­tion, and only after stop­ping the player and in­spect­ing the back­ground props I came to the con­clusion that Pike is where he should be, i.e., on Enter­prise. Maxi­mum con­fu­sion for con­fu­sions sake seems the di­rec­tio­nal mantra. Feeding the audi­ence with con­flict­ing in­for­ma­tion and forcing them to re­evalu­ate their inter­pre­ta­tion of what hap­pened a few se­conds be­fore may be de­mand­ing. But it is not what Trek­kies like me want most and what was famously called “cerebral” more than 50 ears ago.

The “cerebral” remark leads to plot issues, which I will treat in an­other post.
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axiom
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:15am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@JasonR. No harm, no foul. My contribution here is in good faith.

@Kinematic. Goodness. Where to start?

"By double standards, are you referring to the way in which Michael is targeted with much less invective than Wesley Crusher by fans despite having an even more improbable level of talent than he does, receiving an even more disproportionate degree of adulation from other characters than he does, and having a greater negative effect on her Trek series than he has on TNG?"

This is what I exactly mean when I say some arguments are being advanced in bad faith. There are several reasons why this is a problematic omparison. You are comensurating two different moments of social critique, which played on two different platforms (and are difficult to compare, word for word, like for like). But the real intellectual sin is to commensurate critique of white men with that of women of color. I am not going to rehash why this mode of commensuration is problematic, unless you'd like to engage on matters of power and representationin good faith. I am not saying that non-white, non-male, non-cis characters (or rather their writers) are immune from critique. Instead, I am saying that this mode of analysis is at best flawed, and at worse gaslighting.

I was amused when a fellow commentator recently wondered why dectators didn't call out Mary Sue Kirk for saving the world over and over, or why the wisdom of Mary Sue Picard went so often unchallenged.

--

"By excessive insults and profanity, are you referring to the dialogue surrounding Wesley Crusher, who has been targeted with an astronomical deluge of fan rage while eliciting extremely little concern over said profanity and insults compared to Michael?"

I'm not simply talking about profanity, although I find it destracting and excessive. I'm comfortable with adult language. Not comfortable with folks who make these problematic arguments week after week. Is this about retaining some sort of sense of power and inclusive, in a context when the landscape of representation is shifting more broadly? Perhaps that's what we're talking about -- not good, bad, and ugly television writing.

--

"If Michael was the target of the barest fraction of the wrath visited upon Wesley, I can only imagine the pitch and timbre of the bleating that would be heard. That's the real double standard."

Yes, all lives matter...
--

"By the standards of axiom and some others, you are only allowed to criticize Michael if you hew to a set of labyrinthine guidelines for inoffensive phrasing that change like the weather, frequently self-contradict and which no self-appointed moral guardian is willing to explain in detail ("it's not my job to educate you."). To put it in simpler terms, you are not allowed to criticize Michael."

Being mindful of the mode of critique is hardly asking that much of the world. Again, we live in a society that is demographically transforming, and ways of thinking and understanding the past and present are evolving too. Part of this demands us to reckon with parochial and often deeply problematic ways of understanding and making demands of the world. Many of us do this work because we have to -- because we have faced stigmatization or worse. Many of us do it because we are emphathetic people, and we wish to learn and co-create new ways of collaborating across (inevitable) forms of difference. To reduce this to language policing is, at best, a misinterpretation of the intentions drving this cultural moment.

My labor isn't free. It simply isn't my job to provide lectures. Nor have out to define myself as a singular moral authority. I can contribute ideas, share insights, and weave in other voices which can help us think about these topics, thought. And I can and do listen and live with an incredibly diverse range of opionions in my immediate life.

To reiterate, for what I hope to be the final time, my critique is not that we must avoid criticism of the ways in which Michael's character has been written, simply on the basis of race or gender or poltiical climate. What I am naming here is what I see to represent an unhelpful (and at times thoroughly anti-intellectual and toxic) mode of critique which has pervaded this forum, and many other places of discussion, since DIS was aired.
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Spockless
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:12am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow

More than anything, this show is about relationships.. and the main relationship was always Ed and Kelly. I think true fans of the show will like this episode because the those two characters were forced to re-evaluate a lot because of the science fiction gimmick used here. I think this was a near point exploration of what the point of the series is!
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Boura
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:58am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Oh and was just waiting for Pike to turn around after the admiral was vaporised and say "Damn! We could've just had one of the droids close the f**king blast door!!".

He could've at least ordered a red shirt to do the job, surely? The admiral was most qualified to pull a lever?
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Dan Bolget
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:50am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Absolutely superb episode. Thoroughly enjoyed it and the season overall. At.least 3.5 stars for the finale.
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Boura
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:49am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

I reckon the Discovery getting flushed down the shitter was symbolic.

"Send that stinky floater as far away from Trek canon as possible", they thought. And never tell another living soul.

Now, roll out the proper prequel story... "Spock to the bridge". The Enterprise warping away. The End/Beginning.

That ending might just have been the best part of the first two seasons of Discovery (maybe apart from Spocks ears).

Again, wtf did they make this a prequel, other than to link it to the more popular parts of Trek (Spock, Pike, The Enterprise)? They limited themselves from the outset. It's no wonder it all ended so ridiculously and amounted to a pinch of shit.
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Kinematic
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:40am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@axiom

"using profanity, excessive insults, and articulating double standards towards hero characters (who happen to be women and POC)"

By double standards, are you referring to the way in which Michael is targeted with much less invective than Wesley Crusher by fans despite having an even more improbable level of talent than he does, receiving an even more disproportionate degree of adulation from other characters than he does, and having a greater negative effect on her Trek series than he has on TNG?

By excessive insults and profanity, are you referring to the dialogue surrounding Wesley Crusher, who has been targeted with an astronomical deluge of fan rage while eliciting extremely little concern over said profanity and insults compared to Michael?

If Michael was the target of the barest fraction of the wrath visited upon Wesley, I can only imagine the pitch and timbre of the bleating that would be heard. That's the real double standard.

@Booming

By the standards of axiom and some others, you are only allowed to criticize Michael if you hew to a set of labyrinthine guidelines for inoffensive phrasing that change like the weather, frequently self-contradict and which no self-appointed moral guardian is willing to explain in detail ("it's not my job to educate you."). To put it in simpler terms, you are not allowed to criticize Michael.
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Daya
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:36am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Spock is seeing his sister for the very last time. What is he going to say? "You were kinda ok, see ya around"? He is going to embellish a little because that is all Michael will remember him by.
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