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Steven
Sat, Nov 4, 2017, 5:12pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

@Ubik

I have a hunch that the basis for our disagreement is that we use the terms "vision, coherent narrative or style" somewhat differently. Although I tried to be explicit, these terms are still not self-explanatory and need to be put into context and into a larger artistic/cinematic theory. I won't do that right now because it would be a bit exhausting to dig so deep, but I believe this is where our misunderstanding lies.

So okay, I retract my arguments and criticisms for now, because I can't properly explain them.
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Steven
Sat, Nov 4, 2017, 4:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

@Ubik

I see where you're coming from in your reaction to my post. But you ignored what was meant as the keywords of my text - "vision, coherent narrative or style".

My arguments are not, as you say, logical loops (strawman arguments), but they are based on my observation that Discovery doesn't have its own cohesive style but feels like an awkward copy and paste job - at least to me.

I am fully aware that you don't have to share that opinion, and that you might interpret what you see as a good form of entertainment - maybe even having its own distinctive feel - instead of seeing it as something that is lacking. As to "The Force Awakens", it was acceptable entertainment for two hours, but personally, I don't mind whether this movie exists or not. It felt empty to me and I will probably not watch it again. Literally like a copy that makes you wonder: Why not watch the original instead? That's just my feeling towards it.
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Steven
Fri, Nov 3, 2017, 10:43pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

To give us conflicting characters may actually be one thing that Discovery got right; they certainly did a better job than on ENT, where everybody was too content and nice to each other. The DIS characters have potential for future conflicts, especially between military and science officers. Kind of "New Battlestar Galactica meets Star Trek".

Unfortunately, the characters still don't intrigue me, so I'm not particularly looking forward to seeing future conflicts between them and I'd rather focus on the exploration and science fiction aspects. But yeah, the character work hasn't been a complete miss; what I don't like though is how inconsistent the characters still are and where their moral compass is, AND how similar they are to 21st century people.
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Steven
Fri, Nov 3, 2017, 10:12pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

Oh my god, I just read what Trent wrote two days ago. Here's a quote:

>> MisterWooster said: "What we have in DISCO is a Trek that doesn't adhere to
>> the "8ish or so Senior Officers Going on Adventures" template, and the reason
>> behind that is: That Template No Longer Works In 2017TM.

> The template works fine. As someone who reads mountains of new science
> fiction novels a year, I can assure you that deep, unique, philosophically,
> scientifically and politically interesting scifi "adventure" and "first contact" tales
> are everywhere (everyone go read Peter Watts' "Blindsight" and Octavia Butler's
> "Lilith's Brood"). The problem is, television writers live in bubbles and are
> primarily influenced by film and TV, and not literature, and certainly not science
> fiction literature. So they have no tales to tell."

Now THAT is a plausible explanation to me. I have heard a couple of good explanations now for why Voyager, or Enterprise, failed to meet the expectations. None of them are suggesting that the new course that Discovery takes is the necessary cure to an outdated formula. True, Star Trek was (and is) in crisis, but I believe that the course that Discovery has taken hasn't been of much help in solving this crisis; if anything, it has obscured the issue.

Quick summary of some convincing points I've heard:

- "TV writers live in a bubble and don't take inspiration from good literature any more" is a very good explanation. The remix of TV shows that Discovery writers pull off in such a fancy way is not a solution.

- Another very good point was that TNG had a coherent vision from the start, it wanted to be different from contemporay TV and do its own thing; in that regard, it followed in the footsteps of TOS. Where's the vision/boldness in Discovery? And no, it's not bold to do a mixer of existing TV shows. (As I said previously, let's wait till the end of season 1 to do a judgment on what "vision" or narrative the new show has. All I can say is that currently I'm not seeing it.)

- TNG also had a superb production team. The reason why Voyager wasn't as great as TNG or DS9 has largely to do with conflicting ideas of what the series was supposed to be or where it wanted to go. In the first two seasons, there were a couple of good concepts and conflicts between the characters that the writers should have expanded upon. At the core of TOS, there are three characters with conflicting attitudes and ideas (Kirk, Spock, Bones); something similar would've been needed for Voyager. Chakotay and his Maquis crew were too easily implemented into Voyager's crew after season 2 and there was little internal conflict left among the crew. I could go on with this; but I think my point is clear that the "8ish main officers going on adventures" template as such is not the problem.

Let's wait and see.
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Steven
Fri, Nov 3, 2017, 3:10pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

"I just want to add one thing: Star Trek Discovery feels to me like the first Trek series since DS9 that's genuinely committed to trying something new. Voyager and Enterprise tried to be fresh in their initial concepts, and had their moments, but they were largely rehashes of stuff we'd seen before. But a lot of Trek fans now seem to fault Discovery for departing from prior shows too much to do its own thing. My response? If all you want from Star Trek is familiarity and repetition, there are HUNDREDS of old episodes on Netflixa and in TV reruns for you to enjoy."

That's the two camps that we have right now:

1. One camp says: DIS is boring for being too much like any other contemporary TV show. It has lost Star Trek's originality and no guts any more.

2. The other says: I was bored by VOY and ENT, finally we got a new series that has the guts to refresh the Trek formula.

Both are right to *some* lesser degree. The question is which one you think is the more relevant description of what's going. To me, it's clearly number (1) and there are lots of examples to strengthen that argument (which have been brought up during the discussion).

I think the people who defend position number (2) need to explain to us what the new "vision", the new coherent narrative or style is supposed to be. Because if they can't do that, then we have a strong indication that the new series is without artistic direction and a product of mere "copy and paste". At this point, I don't have the evidence to completely rule out that the writers KNOW what they're doing, so I don't want to lean too much out of the window. But I can say that I haven't recognized a coherent narrative *so far*.

The right time to judge will probably be the end of season 1.
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Steven
Thu, Nov 2, 2017, 4:38pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

The series fatigue argument is also unconvincing to me. In "The Force Awakens", the writers took the safe route of doing a - rather uncreative - copy and paste job and sticking too close to the original. But surely, you can't argue that the Star Wars universe had "series fatigue" already and that it would have been impossible to create a new, original movie, that set itself better apart from the original ones.

That is what I also see happening on Discovery. DIS uses the established methods from contemporary shows (2017) plus the established methods from the old Trek shows, mixes them somehow and then the Media hypes the result as a creative new approach on Trek.

I will only subscribe to that positive interpretation when I've discovered a coherent, convincing artistic and narrative direction of the new show. So far, I haven't, and Peter G is right in saying that TNG was much bolder - in setting itself apart from everything else - than Discovery is with its rehashing of things that you've already seen in 10 other TV series, just better (Discovery being a shallow copy of the originals). Who wants to see a worse version of Battlestar Galactica or House of Cards?

It's still possible for DIS to get its act straight, so this is all that I want to comment on this atm.
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Steven
Wed, Nov 1, 2017, 6:10pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

"Steven I find it very disrespectful that you come here again and again writing basically how stupid anybody is who liked this episode or the show overall!"

Well it recently came up as a point in the discussion that some people see the show as anti-science or anti-intellectual, so I posted my view on it. That was a constructive thing to do, as in to clarify my position.

Having done that, I see no point in doing it again, and I'll move on. So don't worry, I am not coming here particularly to insult people. I have every right to write that I don't feel taken seriously by the authors because they don't make the effort to polish their scripts and THEY treat the audience as dummies.

If your conclusion from that is that I wanted to insult the audience and insinuate that they are stupid, well it wasn't meant like this. It's hard to speculate on the general audience, maybe they're just coming from a different angle and for some reason they're not bothered by the same things that I am, maybe the do spot the same mistakes but don't mind them, or they don't spot them... I don't know. I never directly insulted the audience, and if that is what you read between the lines from my posts, well that isn't what I said.
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Steven
Wed, Nov 1, 2017, 4:29pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

"That's sort of the vibe I get off Michael, basically that 'science' for the show boils down to that she's smarter than everyone else and is always right. TNG did quite a lot of science-puzzle shows, and in each one the characters are mostly wrong for the entirety of the episode until someone - or a group - comes around to the solution, which is typically thematic to the episode. In DISCO there isn't any 'getting it wrong until they get it right', Michael is just right. That's not science, it's the Trek equivalent of superpowers."

Thank you for putting it in such good words, that is just the point I am trying to make whenever I say the show is anti-science or anti-intellectual. It's true that they are not directly saying that science is stupid or intellectuals are dorks, and if Lorca says this, it should be treated as a single voice and I wouldn't see it as the voice of the entire series.

This is fine and well. But there is an *indirect* disrespect for science and intellectuals so far on the show, because they give almost no screen time to solving scientific or intellectual puzzles. Nobody has to figure anything out, which is what most Star Trek episodes used to be constructed around. Michael gets the solution instantly right, with no explanation given how she reached her conclusion, and boom, there is your Hail Mary. I don't take the writers' claim that they love science at face value, because they need to show it through their scripts to convince me.

On the "intellectual" topic, for some reason I feel a bit intellectually insulted in every episode so far, because there are always a couple of mind-bogglingly stupid logic flaws, that make the viewing experience much less pleasant than it could be. It's like they don't take the audience and their intellect seriously and don't make the effort to polish their scripts. Which is something that was *different* on Star Trek before. Even Voyager episodes, which often had silly stories, were a bit more consistent in themselves and at least tried to be clever within their own logic, and tried not to give us logical flaws every 5 minutes.

The first Trek movie whose watching experience was ruined for me because they brought huge logical flaws every few minutes (you had just recovered from one, and then came the next) was "Nemesis". That is what I call the Nemesis experience. For some reason, Discovery gives me a very similar vibe. Everything revolves around the visuals and action, while nobody stops for even a moment to think about the contrivances that are called a plot.
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Steven
Wed, Nov 1, 2017, 4:00pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

"Peter G, I totally understand your reading of this episode but I don’t think it was necessarily meant to be read like that."

You assume that Peter G was trying to sum up and judge the episode in his text, which he failed to do properly. I think that's where you're wrong in the first place.

It's evident to me that Peter G never meant to write a representative review of the episode, the likes that Jammer writes. He instead focused on very particular impressions that lead to certain conclusions about the series as a whole, which he elaborated on. That was very picky, and some people here mistook it as a "negative review for this one episode", which it wasn't.
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Steven
Wed, Nov 1, 2017, 1:24am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

Skeech, that explanation is about as convincing as the reason why Warp 10 was never used again on Voygager: Simply because it mutates human DNA. It wasn't a convincing explanation back then, and it's no more convincing now. There's a reason why "Threshold" is considered one of the worst Trek episodes of all time.

During wartime, everything is different anyway. They would've used the spore drive during the Dominion War endlessly, because even if it kills the pilot, there are always some people willing to sacrifice themselves like that if it brings their side a good tactical advantage. (For example, if it allows the ship to escape; better to just kill one person, than allow the whole ship to be destroyed.)

Besides, Janeway would've used it right after the Voyager pilot episode, to sacrifice herself, but bring the Crew home.
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Steven
Tue, Oct 31, 2017, 10:58pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

"We just had a 3 episode arc about a new life form that was explored in detail, it feels disingenuous to act like the show doesn't explore new life just because it didn't in this episode."

I must have been watching the show in a mirror universe, because to me the tardigrade is the best example of how this show doesn't (!) take alien lifeforms seriously. I roughly remember it like this:

"We've hooked it up to a neural scanner! Here's the brain patterns!"
[10 minutes later]
"We need results fast. Let's put it to sleep, then I lower the forcefield and cut off its fingernail, as a sample to weaponize."
"Okay."
[Female officer does as she says, gets attacked and dies]

Here's what a real scientific thinker would have inserted:

"Wait a moment; it killed a lot of Klingons and you just want to approach it? Shouldn't we try to anticipate its behavior (most likely violent)? I'm sure that in 10 minutes, in a streak of brilliance, I will recognize that it is only "defending itself", but by that time you will be already dead. Also, why did we hook it up to a brain scanner if we don't even take a look at the monitor to see whether it has been sedated? [Yes, they actually didn't even look at the brain scan monitor.] Oh, and you want to bring a phaser, which has been PROVEN to ineffective. That is surely a good measure to defend yourself."

You call the original version "explored in detail"?

Some time later, while the tardigrade is looking like it's suffering, Michael suddenly comes to the conclusion: "It's self-aware!" What her conclusion is based on, we are never told. Normally, at this point, in any Trek episode, people would try to communicate with the lifeform to prove the theory that it's self-aware through whatever he's saying. But no, we never got any communication established.

And that is pretty much all that we ever learned about the tardigrade. Jumps in captivity are for some reason stressful, while jumps in freedom are not, so the creature is released.

Your "3-episode-exploration" is much less than any single episode of any other other Trek show, if it puts the exploration of a new life form in its center, tells us about that lifeform.

"I also have trouble buying the anti-intellectual, anti-science mindset when the majority of the characters are scientists and the show dotes over them."

You're right in that regard. But the writers show their disrespect for science by putting really bad science in the show.
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Steven
Tue, Oct 31, 2017, 4:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

Good points, Peter G.

"And this, I think, reflects the moral compass of the production team. I honestly feel that they understand Trek about as well as JJ Abrams does Star Wars. They know the gadgets, they know the references, but the heart of it entirely eludes them. Worse - they appear to hold values that are utterly antagonistic to Trek. And let's not mince words about showing Mudd torturing people: these scenes were supposed to be fun to watch. Is it proper to make a comedic spectacle over the Captain being spaced?"

When someone is shown to us as a sadist, that used to have a narrative justification. But on DIS, pretty much every "bad guy" is exaggerated like this. The Klingons are torturers, assumedly in a pathological way, because keeping Mudd and Ash in the prison for months seems tactically pointless, when they could just be executed. Obviously, the Klingons like to gloat and humiliate their enemies. Captain Lorca also likes his collection of pain-inflicting weapons, just don't ask me WHY. What's the narrative point? It's almost like these character cards were written by 11-year olds, who try to make them "as badass as possible", with no regard for the moral implications.

New Mudd is the kind of character that you usually meet in video games these days. In pretty much every ego shooter, there are these sadistic characters whose cruelty we watch as a form of entertainment. The writers of the show use this common device simply because it's an established and cheap form of entertainment.

But yeah, the show is missing a soul. There's nothing behind it.

"... although I was still sad not to hear any more about what a 4-D life form is or how the Federation knows of their existence. But who am I kidding, I'm not going to get that kind of thing on this show."

I think that's just another example of how anti-intellectual this show is. I doubt that they have any concept behind what a 4-D lifeform is supposed to be. No intelligent person would include "four-dimensional beings" into an episode script, because that is actually what WE are: We move through three dimmensions, plus time, so by definition we all are four-dimensional beings.
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Steven
Mon, Oct 30, 2017, 10:54am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

"Why did Michael eat the death ball, instead of throwing it at Mudd?"

That's the point that I already tried to make: Even if we assume that phasers got remotely deactivated, there are other ways to stop an intruder - physical assault, throwing one of Lorca's death weapons, etc.

"If this is not a reboot, why is this Mudd so much more sociopathic than old Mudd?"

I was definitely wondering that, too. But it's probably the same as with the Klingons: Make him look brutal, because that's considered "edgy" on television today.
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Steven
Mon, Oct 30, 2017, 10:38am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

Basically a time-loop episode like this one should be the easiest to get right, it is so conveniently self-contained (pun intended). That the writers still manage to make so many mistakes is kind of impressive. Not in a good way!
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Steven
Mon, Oct 30, 2017, 10:22am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

My scores so far, now that we had roughly half a season.

Pilot
1x01 - 2 stars (sets a nice atmosphere, but the spacewalk is pretty dumb)
1x02 - 1.5 stars (Michael's actions are barely, erm, bareable)

Regular episodes
1x03 - 1.5 stars
1x04 - 1.5 stars
1x05 - 1.0 stars (extremely lame prison episode, reminds me of ENT season 2)
1x06 - 1.5 stars
1x07 - 2.5 stars (has the actual feel of a Trek episode, but too many errors in execution)
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Steven
Mon, Oct 30, 2017, 10:01am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

> "It's pretty convenient that they just happened upon this whale with Mudd in it out
> in the middle of nowhere."
>
> Good lord, Mudd put himself there for them to find.

I think his point was that Mudd knew where the Discovery would be.
Just like the Klingons in the prison episode knew where Lorca's shuttle would be, to catch it. But with the Discovery, it's even weirder that Mudd would be able to predict its position, given that the ship makes unpredictable jumps all the time.

Another question is why exactly Mudd thought that the spore drive was incomplete, and when Stamets revealed himself, it was like "Heureka! It's him!" As far as I remember, the drive also works without a "pilot"... just not over such big distances. But the Klingons were coming to fetch it, anyway. You know what would have been clever? If Mudd had been forced to use the drive, in order to avoid his pursuers and jump directly into Klingon territory, to give the ship to the Klingons. That would have given him a genuine incentive to make the drive work and use it.

It would also have spared us the meeting with the pursuing ship and Mudds reunification with Stella... which I really could've done without. This ending was directly copied from TNG's "The outrageous Okona", where Cpt. Okona also has a rich young girl who's into him that he's fleeing from. (If my memory serves right, but it usually does.)

About Stamets giving up himself... from a tactical perspective, that was a terrible decision. Giving up himself meant that ALL of the crew would be given to the Klingons and tortured/killed, so it didn't really help anyone or prevent them from being harmed further.

2.5 stars, the highest that Discovery will probably ever get on my scale.
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Steven
Mon, Oct 30, 2017, 6:44am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

Excellent points Skeech. I wouldn't emphasize the point too much that Stamets didn't confront Mudd himself (he doesn't seem to be the soldier type, and silently plotting against Mudd behind his back also seems a good course of action).

But you still got to wonder how Mudd can move freely through the Bridge and corridors without having to fear that security personal just shoots him. Are there forcefields everywhere on the bridge (every 50 centimeters), so that no matter where he stands, there'll always be protective forcefields around him? We've never seen such a thing on Trek before though. Seems a bit much. More likely that he disabled everyone's phasers remotely, if such a thing is possible. But even so, when he is about to give the ships' position to the Klingons (and I mean when he REALLY did it, not in the last loop when the "chair was re-wired"), even without phasers, every officer on the bridge should start running towards Mudd to try to overpower him physically, before he gives their position away. They are soldiers, right? And they're just standing there...?

All these flaws (Skeech summed them up well) make the show really amateurish. Even in a decent episode like this one, they have to ruin things with countless logical flaws. Most of which could have been prevented with some tweaks. Especially embarassing are pure errors (such as Michael remembering something from the previous loop), the kind of which you wouldn't see in a TNG time loop episode. Because the show was just better. You'd think that this kind of stuff could be avoided, if the writers were capable.
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Steven
Sun, Oct 29, 2017, 1:55am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Lethe

@TheAncient

In case you didn't understood what I wrote, I was basically calling OmicronThetaDeltaPhi out on trolling, which is what he does unless he's willing to present his case and back up his view. Just making a bold statement that the new series is a dumbed-down Trek is not a good idea.

My *whole post* was trying to make the point that while I subscribe to OmicronThetaDeltaPhi's opinion, making such a statement without willingness to engage in an argument about it is indeed trolling.

So from the context it should have been sufficiently clear that I was not trolling, but on the contrary trying to defuse the situation; although the first sentence of my post ALONE could give you that idea.
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Steven
Sat, Oct 28, 2017, 10:57pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Lethe

"One can be a fan of this show while still admitting to the fact that it *is* a dumbed down mainstreamized version of Trek (Jammer has done so more than once, with his "there's a Trek for everyone" statement) and accept the fact that some people just can't bring themselves to enjoy this kind of thing."

I think many people haven't realized yet that this show is a dumbed-down version of Trek, and that is excusable because it's a complex topic. It will become more evident once we have the arc finished and can take a more distanced look at the material. I don't even want to have that discussion right now, this is why I never wrote explicitly that the new show is dumbed down, as you do. It'd be a difficult discussion to have at the current time, because the show is still so new.

Personally, I've noted a number of indications that this show is less deep than others before it, but if I wrote those down, people would probably throw lots of counter-arguments in my face - such as "this show has more ambiguity than before; you don't know where you stand with Lorca, among others; he could be a calculating psychopath or not", and in this particular way the show is indeed cleverer than old Trek.

Yeah, I believe I see the same general pattern that you do, that this show is more mainstream and dumbed down than previous ones, but it'd make for a difficult discussion right now and I don't start a discussion or make bold statements, unless I'm willing to dive into it and back it up with arguments. So I personally won't join in a discussion on that atm.
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Steven
Sat, Oct 28, 2017, 10:31pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Lethe

@BZ

Fair enough, if you've seen it this way, I understand your disappointment in season 4. I just wish the finale had been different. But anyway, it's a good example to illustrate how confusion over whether a show is science, religion or anti-science can lead to disappointment.
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Steven
Sat, Oct 28, 2017, 10:10pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Lethe

"that was scientifically explainable" -> should be "that wasn't scientifically explainable"
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Steven
Sat, Oct 28, 2017, 10:07pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Lethe

@BZ

Short reply to that, I think there were plentiful hints during the first season already that the show had a certain amount of supernatural elements mixed in that would never be explained through anything else than faith or god. But you needed to read between the lines to recognize that, so I understand your disappointment in season 4. In the beginning, I still thought it possible that there was an explanation for the voice in Baltar's head, but then the voice also appeared in Six's head (season 2) and it just had too much knowledge that was scientifically explainable, so at the latest by this point, it had become evident that the series was relying on certain religious elements that wouldn't be scientifically explained.

But as a previous poster has said, both "credible fictional science" and supernatural/religious explanations are better than anti-science, which are purely wrong concepts of science or how the world works. And I felt that line from religion to anti-science was crossed towards the end of the series. I even found Kara as an Angel acceptable though, because that was similar to the Angelic version of Six that had been in Baltar's head since the beginning, so it wasn't entirely surprising or new.
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Steven
Sat, Oct 28, 2017, 9:52pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Lethe

"Look - one cannot fairly approach a brand new tv show with certain a priori standards and assumptions about what OUGHT to be there. One must take the new show on its own terms, and judge it based solely on how well it manages to achieve its own goals. Sometimes those goals are not self-evident, and one must make some educated guesses, but still, in order to fairly and accurately judge the success or aesthetic appeal of a work of art, one must judge it on its own terms, and bring no expectations."

In general, this is the right way to approach art. But if a franchise is already established and stands for certain concepts and ideas, it has to be evolved with caution. You could call "Star Trek" its own genre, and many people come to watch the show because they enjoy this genre. When you go to the cinema, and don't tell people anything about a movie's genre - could be horror, could be action, could be romance - but instead just ask them to "interpret the movie after its internal perspective", many of them will afterwards say "it might be good in its own way, but I really didn't want to watch a horror movie". If the movie is a lot different from what you expected, you could call that a mislabel.

Of course, it would be silly to continue this criticism of Discovery indefinitely. It's only been six episodes so far and a little more than 1 month, so it's understandable that there's still a heated discussion going on. Personally, I will probably grow quiet soon and leave the fans of the new show alone - to enjoy it as they please.
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Steven
Sat, Oct 28, 2017, 9:22pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Lethe

@Jason

"Oy. I really don't understand, and I mean this sincerely, the obsession evident here over a) so-called Star Trek canon, and b) "plausible" science. Neither of those two things, canon or plausible science, are in any objective sense valuable, necessary, useful, or even desirable in this, or any other other, television series. Anyone who complains about those two things is essentially walking into what evidently turns out to be a fruit store and complaining that there isn't enough beef jerky."

Look, just because you don't agree with our perspective, you don't need to tell us that what we feel or think is nonsensical. While I'm adamant about my own opinion, I also acknowledge that there are others. You need to be more tolerant.

There are certain elements that some people have identified as their "core ideas" of Star Trek, which they are justifiably missing in DISCO. It's as easy as that. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. It makes no sense that you are telling people "Star Trek has always been a fruit store, where you can't ask for beef jerky." That analogy is crude and doesn't fit here.
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Steven
Sat, Oct 28, 2017, 9:12pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Lethe

"It'd just be better if they'd either tried to explain it using more credible science or didn't explain it at all. Both credible fictional science and no science are preferable to anti-science."

To illustrate this point, I have an excellent example. Many people were hugely disappointed by how the finale of the new Battlestar Galactica turned out. The show had made extensive use of both the concepts of "credible fictional science" and "no science" (= supernatural powers, religion) during its run, although admittedly the focus was more on the latter, on the supernatural, than had been the case in Star Trek.

But in the finale, the writers resorted to anti-science that just left a bitter aftertaste to an otherwise excellent show. They implied that the people from the twelve colonies and the natives of our earth were genetically compatible because god somehow guided our evolutions to a similar end result. That is 100% creationism, "god has shaped all life on earth after a masterplan", which unfortunately a lot of people from the US believe in. And then the colonists settled on earth and threw away all their technology, like space hippies, because they had found their Garden Eden. Completely disregarding the likelihood that a virus or bacterium from the New World could wipe out the colonists (especially if their biology is so similar to the life that developed on earth, that viruses and bacteria will have an excellent compatibility with their hosts, consuming them in order to multiplay themselves). What you need at this point is modern medicine, but the finale glossed over it.

Science fiction that gives us anti-science is not inspiring. There are plentiful examples for idiotic science in superhero movies (DC, Marvel, or the Transformer movies) which is so bad that ten year olds could've come up with it. But in this genre you don't expect anything clever. Star Trek was the notably exception so far.
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