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Jasonr R.
Fri, Sep 2, 2016, 4:44am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: What You Leave Behind

Getting back to Weyoun you mentioned that even he did not know what was different. Weyoun, the genetically engineered master general of the Dominion, could perceive nothing tangibly different about the war, yet "something" (intangible?) was different.

You mentioned the Krenim. True they could erase entire species but whatshisname didn't foresee Janeway flying Voyager up his a$$ did he? Just as Q didn't foresee Picard besting him, particularly in the earlier episodes when he was much more the malevolent adversary. Powerful entities could influence the direction of events within the story but not the *story* itself.

Something about the Prophet's abilities strikes me as "meta". Their power is almost like that of the writer himself- when they're there, the good guys can't seem to lose even though logically they should! Does that make J.J Abrams a Pah Raith?

Okay I concede I am on a bit of a flight of fancy with this theory. My Prophet as writer / God is something I just pulled out of my rear end, although given Sisko's writer / alter ego and the events in the Desert of Tyree, not the craziest of crazy theories.
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Jasonr R.
Thu, Sep 1, 2016, 11:54am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: What You Leave Behind

By the way Peter, while I generally agree with your comments concerning the nature of the Prophets and your claim that they are not overtly "divine" for the most part - you are ignoring one small but key piece of evidence.

When Dukat released the Pah Raith and closed the wormhole there is a curious scene where Weyoun frankly acknowledges that Dukat's actions have somehow tipped the momentum of the war in the Dominion's favour. This follows Gul Dukat's previous comments that the Prophets would protect Bajor and that to deafeat Bajor one needed to defeat their Gods first.

Weyoun makes it clear that he does not believe the Prophets to be Gods (leading to one of the funniest moments between Weyoun and Damar). This tells us that unlike Dukat or Kira his assessment must be considered unbiased. So we must presume that Weyoun knows what he is talking about!

I suppose you could say that this is just coincidence, but again I find that hard to accept given Weyoun's comments.

Getting back to what you said previously, yes TOS and STNG did have powerful entities like Charlie, the Dowd and Q who could perform great feats. But I doubt there were any who could (or would) use their power to subtly tip the balance of a galactic war in favour of one race or the other. This to me is a level of power beyond what we had previously seen. Yes Q could have vaporized the Federation, but influenced "fate" in this way? This is the antithesis of what Trek stands for or stood for previously. If meddling with fate is not divine power it is practically indistinguishable from it. Even Q could never have accomplished this - as was clear particularly Hide and Q and EAF.
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Jasonr R.
Thu, Sep 1, 2016, 11:33am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: What You Leave Behind

"You might want to read up on whether the Geneva Convention covers those who commit atrocities not to mention the fates of people like Hermann Goering"

I am pretty sure Goering got a trial and wasn't "melted" on the spot by the people who captured him.

But apart from the moral implications of murdering a captured surrendering enemy leader on the spot without trial there was the pragmatic issue of what to do about The Dominion. Its Alpha Quadrant forces may have been beaten but that was only a tiny sliver if its total power which was completely untouched in the Gamma Quadrant and still capable of invading (and conquering) the alpha quadrant.

Yes they could have let the founders die of the virus but this would have plunged the Gamma Quadrant into chaos and may have endangered the alpha quadrant if rampaging Jem Hadar came scrambling through the wormhole looking for revenge. (A scenario discussed previously when the Obsidian Order and Talshiar attempted genocide on the Founders)

While the Prophets had prevented that invasion previously there was never a gurantee that they would continue to do so indefenitely. Moreover, it was certainly in the Federation's interests to find a longer term solution to the problem besides depending the benevolence of alien deities.
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Jasonr R.
Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 2:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek Beyond

"But the JJ-verse films threw the baby out with the bathwater and basically turned the tech of the universe into Dr. Who, where if you can imagine doing it, they can come with a way to do it. Under those conditions you can't create continuity or story limitations anymore and it becomes a free-for-all."

Apart from so many gaping plot holes you really hit the nail on the head when it comes to reasons I dislike the Abrams films.

For previous Star Treks going back to the original the technology was a lovingly crafted part of the universe, something that was given alot of thought, even when it was relied on as a crutch or a stopgap (like the original transporter). Like the languages in the Lord of the Rings books it was an important part of the universe building and generally writers respected its continuity. Even Voyager, which monkeyed around far too much with that continuity, at least attempted to maintain some consistency.

For the Abrams films it's more than just abandoning the pretenses of scifi and delving into fantasy. It's clear that the writers don't even care about the tech or have any interest in it as anything but an immediate means to an end for a specific episode's plot resolution. How do we get from point A to point B? Whatever, a wizard did it. Who cares? Not the writers. Even Voyager at least attempted to give their technobabble solutions a consistent feel.

In the Jem Hadar the destruction of the Odyssey was impactful to the viewer not just because it was another Enterprise look alike being destroyed but because we knew how powerful the Galaxy class ships were and to see the Jem Hadar just wreck one in a matter of minutes was shocking. It spoke to the incredible ruthlessness and power of the Dominion that they could just ignore the Odyssey's shields, bypass its defences and obliterate a huge ship of its power with a couple of fighters! Because the writers took the time to establish the technology and define our expectations, they could really wow us when something really big and bad came on the scene, like the Borg in Q Who.

The destruction of the Enterprise in Beyond is comparatively a non event for the viewer. The Enterprise is nothing. Its technology is just some vague plot devices that are whatever the story requires them to be for each movie. If it gets wrecked? Who cares? They'll have another faceless one built in time for the next movie. It'll be really "advanced"? Sure - whatever that means. Maybe it will be able to blow up starsystems with its phasers and warp across the galaxy in one movie - right before it gets wrecked by the alien of the week in the next.

You know what the Enterprise has become in Abrams' universe? One of Voyager's shuttles.
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