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Ed
Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:01am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Plain Simple

Yes, I agree that if the Lorca we know is from the MU (which I think he is), he blew up Lorca's old ship and took his place.

Then he used his skills of manipulation to get his superiors to buy his story and also get himself assigned to a science ship where he could supervise the work on a means of travel which could provide easy access to multiple universes.

He probably ended up in the PU through one of those random accidents we've seen before, while on the run from MU Michael whom I think he killed. Now he wants to continue his plot to overthrow the Emperor.

I'm speculating that he tries to make peace with Georgiou by telling her about PU Discovery's jump drive and dimensional travel abilities and recommending that they put their differences aside, build a fleet of warships with the spore drive and go on a spree of multidimensional conquest.

He still wants to kill her, but he needs her now and she will need his knowledge of the spore drive. He could also get aboard Discovery and set it up for takeover without the potential for destroying it that an outright Imperial attack would have.
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Ed
Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:32am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Gee

Good arguments for the "He's Prime Universe Lorca" point of view, but I still think he is from the MU.

The triangular scar reminds me of the portable Agonizer device MU Spock used.

He also has a smug look on his face when Georgiou show up, like he's been waiting for her and has a plan. I think he's plotting to become Emperor and using the crew to help him somehow.
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Ed
Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 8:16am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@ Wolfstar

They could have had the same basic look or at least aesthetic "feel" of TNG/DS9 Klingons using modern day prosthetics. The dated look of some of the old Klingon characters was a product of the technology of the day, not the idea of what a Klingon looks like.

My preference would have been far less mask-like, skin colors closer to the usual human range (with Voq an albino) but still bald. I like the idea of the Klingons having "fads" and maybe shaving your head was in style for a time.

They should have also shown smooth-heads as well since they clearly exist in large numbers canonically at this time.


@ LJ

Maybe she was XO, but I like to think that "Killy" was third or fourth in command and took out all her superiors on the ship at once. :) She's ambitious.
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Ed
Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 5:01pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Mitch S.

Jump drives (ships going places instantly) are relatively common in classic science fiction and this is one ship in all Starfleet using an experimental technology that will clearly have to be abandoned.
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Ed
Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 3:34pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Todd

I like it. He seemed pretty calm when he saw the Emperor's hologram. He must have a plan.

This reminds me of something I was thinking about. As much as I love the idea of Georgiou riding in and acting badass, it seems very risky for an Emperor. Too many "accidents" could happen.

Once I got to that level I'd stay in a highly fortified palace surrounded by guards and servants conditioned for loyalty (or at least wearing explosive collars set to go off if I die unnaturally) and institute a bunch of failsafes to protect my position.

People outside the Palace staff would only come near me after a through scanning and even then have to stay about 20 paces back.
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Ed
Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 3:16pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

Maybe the new Klingon look is a side effect of some widely used quack remedy for the augment virus.

--Tired of looking like a weak human? Get your ridges back in no time! Guaranteed results--

"Hey my ridges are back! And you said I was stupid to use this stuff."

"Crap, my hair is falling out!"

"My face looks like a hideous mask! No side effects my ass; I'll kill that guy!"
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Ed
Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 11:19am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@LJ

Regarding your earlier remark about Klingon diversity, I'd like to see the rise of the Klingon worldview as it existed in TOS be a reaction against the mixture of religion and feudalism which produced this war.

The current war will obviously be a bad loss for them. The Empire is then taken over by a centralized, pragmatic military dictatorship which diminishes the power of the great houses and gets rid of religious fanatics.

When THAT eventually fails, the houses become prominent again.
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Ed
Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 7:21am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Anonymius

I think it's more complicated than "anyone who kills the captain" which would allow for radically unqualified people to control the ship. It probably follows the chain of command with possible exceptions for talented lower level officer with support of crew.

Ash was presented as Michael's bodyguard and tried to kill her. Who would trust him?
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Ed
Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 7:35pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

I love the show 's crazy fungal space travel thing. It's like something out of Philip K Dick.
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Ed
Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 12:00pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@LJ

LOL. All those murders or acts of sabotage in Engineering, the hallways, etc. in all those shows and never a camera. :)

The only way I can make any sense of it is that it's an over-reaction to something awful in the past.

Some totalitarian government used video surveillance in such a horrible, over the top manner that when progressive civilization finally reasserted itself, even reasonable uses of it became taboo. Kind of like their ultra-conservative bioethics is a reaction to the Eugenics Wars.

In the case of this episode, though, it was in Sickbay. I could see where there might be some legitimate privacy concerns about filming the area where people get examined.


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Ed
Mon, Jan 15, 2018, 12:56pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Peter G

I agree about him trying to kill her back on the ship. He seemed too in control by that point now that I think about it, though I stand by my original opinion about his behavior in the Rebel camp.

I also meant to say in my other post that I agree with you about Sarek. It would have been interesting to see what he and the Rebels thought about the multiple universe situation and it's also ridiculous that he wouldn't know after a mind meld. Also doesn't make sense that he'd hide it if he did.
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Ed
Mon, Jan 15, 2018, 12:10pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Peter G

Voq's mental conditioning obviously went wrong. The show has been very consistent about this. L'Rell is clearly aware of it. He's been Identifying way too much with the Ash persona and generally going insane.

An already disturbed person meeting an exact MU duplicate of themselves might do anything. Add to this the fact that as you mention, Prime Universe Voq is kind of a loser to begin with. But who else would be desperate enough to accept this assignment?
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Ed
Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 10:30pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@SpaceHippy

Is he a Klingon or a filthy Andorian?! A true Klingon does not need anaesthesia! Maybe a cup or two of blood wine. :)
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Ed
Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 10:22pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Todd

Spock turned in his family to the Secret Police years ago. Sarek faked his own death and escaped. The Empire doesn't know that he's the "Prophet" of the Rebels.
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Ed
Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 5:50pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

@ Chrome

Maybe he's really the MU Lorca and he'll try to make the crew help him in his plot to become Emperor in exchange for something they need to get the ship home.

This will involve entering the Palace as they were warned not to do.

I imagine Saru causing chaos in the Palace running around with his panic-driven super strength and speed. :)
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Ed
Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 11:23am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

"Having said all that, I still hope next week is the end of this mirror-universe saga.." Mertov

Yes! Or even if we get stuck there for three, then let THAT be the end of it. But tell a good story while we're there.

I've probably said something like this before, but I'd like to see Michael tempted to stay where she is, as it's strangely the first time in her life she's ever fit in. She's a rare popular Imperial captain. As you say, the elevator fight was great. So the way I'm imagining it is she gets a little too used to her role.

Maybe Tyler tries to use this to keep her there, get her to destroy the Discovery and thus get to be with her AND serve the Klingons by keeping the spore drive and cloaking device secrets lost forever.

Before she does anything really bad, she feels sorry for her crew and the rebels and comes to the Discovery's assistance and helps get the ship back home. I hope she meets Michelle Yeoh's character again in whatever MU role she has.

I see her as either a rare human rebel or the Empress. Speaking of the mysterious Emperor or Empress (Emperor might be used for both men and women in the future like sir) I'd like to meet them given all the ranting about "the Palace." But that would take a lot of story to get them to earth. I doubt the Emperor travels much.

Tilly was lots of fun having to act tough and dominant when that isn't her nature. "What the heck!" "Hold your horses!" It made me think about what repressed character traits she might have, though when she started getting into the role.

I agree with your comments on L'Rell and Tyler scenes.


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Ed
Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 5:41am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

@Mertov

I'm actually a big fan of the Mirror Universe in theory, but I agree with you about how it was used in DS 9--my favorite Star Trek series in all other respects.

For one thing, they simply went there too damn much. Another thing is, the value system expressed in their MU history was atrocious. Reform leads to societal collapse. Not being a fascist dictatorship makes you weak. Yes, the show was often about bending the rules of a liberal society but only in certain circumstances.

For me, the Empire either lasted or reformed into something like the Federation. I do like the non-DS 9 portrayals, but I hope Discovery has a couple episodes there and then leaves it behind forever.
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Ed
Tue, Jan 9, 2018, 7:11pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

@Filip

But Tyler goes to Culbert and says, to paraphrase, I feel weird. I feel like the Klingons might have done something to me that I don't remember.

Culbert then says we did a the usual tests. Yes, your body is all f----- up because you were tortured by Klingons for months but you seem to be recovering and don't show signs of any known form of brainwashing.

Tyler keeps saying how he's afraid there's more, so Culbert grudgingly does some extremely detailed scans that are apparently far beyond what a doctor would normally do.

Now why would he distrust a man who voluntarily comes into Sickbay and asks for help? If Tyler wanted to hide whatever is wrong with him he wouldn't call attention to it. If he knew for sure that he was a surgically and genetically altered spy, he'd be happy that he passed the initial examination and try to avoid the doctor.

Tyler seems worried, not threatening until he actually attacks Culbert.
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Ed
Tue, Jan 9, 2018, 11:07am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

Hey, what do people here think of the previews for the next episode, "The Wolf Inside"? It looks pretty amazing to me with:

--Michael still in apparent command of the MU ship with Ash/Voq at her side, dealing with the stress of living as a Terran Empire officer.
--The Disc. crew look like they're getting the spore drive back online.
--Michael mind-melds with a Vulcan.
--A planet is subjected to what seems to be a horrifying bombardment from a ship.
--Brutal scenes of war.
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Ed
Tue, Jan 9, 2018, 10:39am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

@Chrome

One thing I can think of is that Voq was a pariah in Klingon society while Ash is a respectable member of Starfleet.

There's also the fact that something went wrong with the brainwashing on a technical level. He knows something weird is going on, but the Voq identity was still largely suppressed.

Even when he killed the doctor, he was probably doing it so he could continue enjoying being Ash, not so he could start doing Voq's job as a spy.

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Ed
Tue, Jan 9, 2018, 7:20am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

@Owen

Thanks! It sounds good. I like Diane Duane.
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Ed
Mon, Jan 8, 2018, 5:57pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

I like the Mirror Universe idea a lot, but was disappointed with What DS9 did with it (even though that's normally my favorite series). TOS, Enterprise and Discovery all have a good take on it in my opinion.

While not much of a Star Trek novel person, is there any fiction about the MU that anyone here would recommend?

I wish we'd gotten a TNG episode with evil Picard, Wesley as a knife wielding punk who stabs Riker in the back for him, Worf as traitor to genuinely honorable Klingon Empire, etc.
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Ed
Mon, Jan 8, 2018, 11:29am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

@Peter G

Maybe Vulcans as a group tend toward rebellion, but a strong faction support the Empire and are often successful in its military. These would of course be the dominant group on Vulcan itself thanks to the Empire's power.

Thus, Spock and other implied Vulcan officers in the TOS MU episode. Like in the Roman Empire, there were a lot of non-Roman loyalists and opportunistic collaborators.


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Ed
Mon, Jan 8, 2018, 10:52am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

I think Ash/Voq should try to keep Michael in her MU role as a powerful captain and work his best to keep her from being assassinated. He should also try to get her to destroy Discovery.

From his point of view this would 1} Let him be loyal to Michael (as he has strong feelings for her), 2} Help the Klingons of the Prime Universe by keeping the cloaking device info. from the Federation.

Geogiou or Stamets could be the Emperor as others have speculated. But I think it would be more interesting if one of them turned out to be a human member of the Rebellion. There are probably some, but they would have to do a lot to prove themselves.

Perhaps Michael starts seriously considering going along with Ash/Voq's plan until it requires her to kill MU Georgiou who pops up as a rebel leader. She can't allow herself to be responsible for her death twice and betrays the Empire getting Discovery back home somehow.
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Frederick Lang
Sun, Jan 7, 2018, 8:39pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

OK SO THE SHOW IS JUST NOT HOLDING BACK THE PUNCHES WITH ITS SAVAGENESS AT ALL. COOL.

That aside, today's episode was an amazing entrance into the new arc that I'm glad is taking place (the Klingon War got a little too ridiculous and quickly resolved). After watching shows like Arrow and The Flash, it's always fun to see what characters do and how they act in a "mirror" or "alternative" universe, this case with Tilly being the captain.

3.5/4 for me. Keep the hotstreak going from the last episode as well Discovery. #FuckTheHaters
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