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Ed
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 11:10am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@KT
If that's the case why did Georgiou say with certainty, "This is Federation space, retreat is not an option. We have to flush the Klingons out".

Exactly. While the story might have been more interesting with an added subplot about contested territory, nothing the characters said or did gives that impression.

If that had been the intent, characters would have said things like this:

T'Kuvma--"We are heading towards a place long occupied illegally by the Federation. Our leaders do nothing to support our territorial rights in this matter because it isn't strategically or economically important.
But true Klingons are above such practical concerns! It is a longstanding symbol of the Empire's increasing weakness and fear of conflict with the Federation. We will destroy anything they have put there and any ship sent to defend it. Then all will know that the Klingons will no longer be disrespected!"

Geogiou--"At one time, the Klingons were making a claim to this area and sometimes attacking Federation ships who came too close. It hasn't happened in a very long time, but be let's be careful. In my opinion, Starfleet shouldn't have put the communications equipment in such a dangerous area in the first place, but I guess they were trying to make a statement that they wouldn't back down."

or

Goergiou--"While nearly all political entities near this area respect the Federation's right to use it, there was a time when the Klingons were complaining that it was theirs and occasionally sending in ships to cause trouble. As they became increasingly isolated, they seem to have dropped the matter so we probably won't run into any problems."
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Peter G.
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 11:10am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@ KT,

"If that's the case why did Georgiou say with certainty, "This is Federation space, retreat is not an option. We have to flush the Klingons out"."

Because there's a difference between seeking a diplomatic understanding and retreating out of cowardice. As I recall the teleplay Saru wanted to bugger out of there because his instinct was danger, and it was the show's way of illustrating to us the Kelpian prey-mentality, whereas Georgiou is capable of recognizing they're in danger but standing her ground for the chance to initiate dialogue with the Klingons. 'Flush the Klingons out' may have been a clunky piece of dialogue writing (I can't recall how she said the line), but I think it meant that they wanted to get the Klingons to reveal their intentions and she was going to stay until she accomplished that. I consider it a calculated risk taken on the offchance they learn something about the Klingons and what they're up to. But again, there's a huge difference between having backbone and going in with guns blazing like Michael wanted to. Up until that point there was no clear sense of the Klingons' hostile intentions, or frankly what they wanted at all. The Starfleet way is to stand your ground and try to investigate, without escalating the level of violence. I think that both Saru and Michael stood as examples of how not to handle the situation, either to flee or to go in swinging, but to take a measured approach. I suppose that's why the show later claims that Georgiou was one of the great captains.
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Yanks
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 10:11am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

Oh, for the Discovery folks.

I very much prefer Michael's hair at the beginning of the show.

Drop the volcano head look please.
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Yanks
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 9:43am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@ Del_Duio
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 8:51am (UTC -6)
"I forget but did we ever get a real answer on why that Discovery-class ship (that wasn't the Discovery) had all those twisted and messed up dead people on it?

Or are we just assuming it was a failed attempt to get to the Mirror Universe?"

My take on that is it was a failed attempt at using the spore drive. This miscue actually produced the tardigrade.
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Sillyk
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 9:18am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S3: Sacred Ground

I always has a different take on this whole episode--- that the entire thing was contrived, perhaps even starting with Kes's initial injury.

It was quite clear the aliens had Janeway's number right from the get-go, and it was also made amply clear they were quite technologically advanced. Perhaps they had even heard of Voyager already before it arrived.

Voyager and Janeway often have way more than a little quasi-Ugly American "walk around like we own this quadrant" attitude and certainly Janeway's "I'll just do your little endurance ritual thing" is extremely condescending.

If the entire setup was contrived, that makes the repeated "it's all meaningless" even more on the nose. Certainly it seems like a possible lesson and I would bet that Janeway pondered this event many times later on.

So I'm suggesting ultimately that the aliens simply cured Kes and protected Janeway when she carried her up the temple.
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Judy
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 9:08am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S6: Birthright, Part II

I don't think anyone else noticed or commented on the fact that Dan Curry directed this episode! I know I'm way late to the discussion, but I think that's the reason for the dullness here. Dan Curry is tremendously talented, but has anyone listened to him on the DVD extras? He is DEADLY DULL to listen to. He was one of the SPFX guys on the show - WHAT was he doing directing?? Just plain weird, IMO.
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Trent
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 9:03am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S1: Mad Idolatry

I've finished Orville's first season, and think it's pretty much beyond criticism.

Orville is what it is; a light comedy, light drama, with loving homages to Trek and classic scifi, which is unpretentious, simple, aims low, has a few bone-throwing jokes to frat boy audiences, a lot of bone-throwing jokes to Trekkies, and which never tries to be cutting edge (dramatically or science fictionally), hip or modern. At its best, it lets you hang out with cute, friendly people on a bright, fancy starship, and taps into the camraderie, optimism and cheeriness of Trek at its most utopian.

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Del_Duio
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 8:51am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

I forget but did we ever get a real answer on why that Discovery-class ship (that wasn't the Discovery) had all those twisted and messed up dead people on it?

Or are we just assuming it was a failed attempt to get to the Mirror Universe?
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Tim
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 7:28am (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S3: Occupation/Precipice

I don't understand why the suicide bombing went ahead. The guy who lost his wife (can't recall his name) could see that Baltar wasn't there, so why did he go ahead with it? The plan was to kill Baltar after all.
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KT
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 5:07am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Peter G "If there's any possibility of doubt that the borders are well-understood by both parties then the onus is on the Federation (the diplomats) to make sure everything is clear."

If that's the case why did Georgiou say with certainty, "This is Federation space, retreat is not an option. We have to flush the Klingons out".
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Yair
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 3:19am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

Talking about "Klingon provocation" in the context of the Sarcophagus ignores what Michael was up to. Burnham's plan did not merely require firing on the Sarcophagus. The idea was to give the Klingons the "Vulcan Hello" - firing on them first, every time a Starfleet vessel meets a Klingon ship. Given that no "provocation" was mentioned as a requirement for firing first during these would-be encounters, it is obvious Burnham was happy to fire regardless of circumstances.

IMHO, this is the one and only time in series the writers weren't entirely on her side - every sympathetic character she asks is hesitant or opposes the plan outright.
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SC
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 3:12am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S1: Firestorm

The best episode so far. I loved it. Okay, the reveal was a bit of a let down and it's essentially just - face your fears - stuff, that we've seen many times before, but it was really entertaining. The characters are excellent and surprisingly Seth is making a decent, likable captain.
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SC
Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 2:28am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

Can't see me watching season 2. The visuals are great but I still don't care for any of the characters and season 1 was a bit of a mess. I prefer The Orville at this point. The Orville is more in line with old Trek, lighthearted and entertaining with interesting characters and intriguing storylines. Moralistic with idealism.

Discovery is bland and kinda boring in comparison.
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Chrome
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 10:17pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

I don’t see why people are defending Burnham’s actions in the premiere after she flat out said she was wrong in this episode.

“the writers were making it clear that [shooting first] was an advisable action.”

I believe the writers at least wanted to promote that Sarek’s understanding of Klingon culture is correct. “Violence brought respect, respect brought peace.” This comes full circle in the finale with L’Rell using a massive bomb to get her own people’s respect. If there’s anything that’s true about Klingons in all iterations of Trek it’s that they appreciate violence. I just wish the writing staff tried a bit harder to connect the dots here.
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Peter G.
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 9:55pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@ BZ,

"To be fair, Sarek only said it worked for the Vulcans, and explicitly cautioned that the Shenzou's situation may be different."

Technically, yes. But my reading of that scene was that the writers were making it clear that this was an advisable action. It didn't play as just Sarek postulation on her options, but more like the narrator-voice telling her that it was the right move. Or maybe even the Voice of Destiny, which assures that her read on situations is always correct.
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Rahul
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 9:51pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Home Soil

There's a good story here but wooden guest acting, bad directing and writing undermine the final product. The 1st half made it clear there was a mystery -- what are the terraformers concealing? But it was needlessly slow to develop. The second part when the ship is dealing with a serious threat from a new life form is better.

Cool concept of this kind of inorganic life and I liked how the Enterprise crew methodically went about establishing this conclusion. And damn, that universal translator is good! I don't see the Horta as a suitable comparison to this life form (as it is organic) but I actually think the Companion ("Metamorphosis") is perhaps more similar. "Ugly bags of water" -- appropriate description for humankind in this case!

Thought the dialog between the microbrain and the Enterprise crew seemed reasonable (after getting past the formidable capabilities of the UT). The microbrain thinks humans are arrogant and it is defending itself -- can't ascribe human qualities to it -- though it tells them to get back in touch in a 200-300 years or something -- maybe a touch of arrogance there!

Some of the plot machinations are arbitrary -- as they have to be in this type of story -- like Riker short-circuiting the lights from a nearby panel. Shouldn't the microbrain be able to deal with this type of action if it can basically control the ship?

2.5 stars for "Home Soil" -- some points for creativity here but really hard to tolerate the weak acting of the terraformers. The old head scientist wasn't too bad, but his misdirection at the start of the episode seemed misplaced -- he didn't know what he had on his hands, but he could hardly think it was something of tremendous value that he'd keep it secret. What would he do with it? Fairly typical TNG S1 here -- a decent idea but poorly executed.
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BZ
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 9:43pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Peter G.,
To be fair, Sarek only said it worked for the Vulcans, and explicitly cautioned that the Shenzou's situation may be different.
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Peter G.
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 8:13pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S1: In the Hands of the Prophets

@ Trent,

I think I understand what Rahul is saying, which is that atheism as an enforced dogma is something we've only seen come out of communist (i.e. totalitarian) countries like the USSR.

That being said, I don't see how that accurate observation is relevant to the issue of whether science promotes atheism. Historically most scientists were not atheists, and even now many aren't, but of course some are as well. I don't see any implication in science as being an alternative to religion, although the point is certainly well taken that many people *feel* that's what science does. But some of the most famous 20th century scientists would beg to differ.
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Peter G.
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 8:11pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@ KT,

""why is there a centuries-old Klingon artifact in this area of space? Could it be that the Discovery is actually in Klingon space and might be perceived as the aggressors? "

Except the Klingons apparently never told the Federation it's their space; they never seemed interested in talking. Except to each other about how they will Dominate and Remain Klingon."

That's not a good argument. If there's any possibility of doubt that the borders are well-understood by both parties then the onus is on the Federation (the diplomats) to make sure everything is clear. A first strike against a Klingon ship that is potentially only (in its view) defending its territory should be totally out of the question. Sacrificing a relay station to give the Klingons the benefit of the doubt should be a no-brainer. But that's where Michael comes in: she has a grudge and doesn't trust them, so wants to attack them rather than let what happened to her parents happen again. The writers clearly agree with her, which is very sad. The worst part, though, was Sarek suggesting she do something totally against Federation values (and law), which contravenes what we've been told over and over - that the Federation does not shoot first. That's one of the reasons I've started calling him "Sarek".
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KT
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 6:23pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@JP
"why is there a centuries-old Klingon artifact in this area of space? Could it be that the Discovery is actually in Klingon space and might be perceived as the aggressors? "

Except the Klingons apparently never told the Federation it's their space; they never seemed interested in talking. Except to each other about how they will Dominate and Remain Klingon.

"By boarding the Beacon, Burnham was giving the Klingons cause to defend themselves. "

Because exploration and identification (which is all Burnham did) are cause for defence? If there was a chance of diplomacy with them, why did they ignore hails?

"There was no justification for Discovery to fire first."

Burnham's reasoning was not solely based on the events of that day. She also factored in what Sarek had told her and her knowledge of Klingons as a 'warrior race'.
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JP
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 5:55pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@KT "Where did you get this impression from? what Burnham initially describes as 'an artifact' was actually a ship covered in coffins." I got this impression by paying attention to the show, and it seems I'm being punished for it now. The artifact is actually the Beacon of Kahless, not the Sarcophagus ship. The beacon is entirely separate from the Sarcophagus ship that decloaks.

Given the available information, both the crew and the audience should be thinking, why is there a centuries-old Klingon artifact in this area of space? Since it emits a scattering field that blocks sensor readings, how long has it been there unnoticed? Could it be that the Discovery is actually in Klingon space and might be perceived as the aggressors?

"As mentioned in the episode there's a nearby Starbase and Andorian Colony."

For a sense of scale, the distance of the border between Romulan and Federation space is 1 light year. At Discovery's location, the nearest Federation starbase is 3 light years away. The nearest Andorian colony is 6 light years away. That leaves plenty of room for a misunderstanding about where the Klingon-Federation borders lie, in the absence of a treaty delineating those borders, and with the Federation's borders actively expanding.

Both the crew and the audience are clued into the possibility that the Discovery could be provoking the Klingons by violating Klingon space, albeit unknowingly. Would the Klingons not be justified in disabling a foreign communications relay in their space? This is why I said Burnham recommended an "unprovoked attack", not comparable to the attack recommended by Spock in "Balance of Terror" (where the Romulans crossed the neutral zone to destroy 3 manned Federation outposts) to which you responded:

"Klingons purposely and wilfully destroyed federation eqiupment in federation space and then lay in wait in order to start a war. When Burnham went to investigate she was attacked without cause."

All the available information suggests that the Beacon was there long before the Federation relay, which means the Federation's claim to this area of space may have been in error. By boarding the Beacon, Burnham was giving the Klingons cause to defend themselves. There was no justification for Discovery to fire first.
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warp10lizard
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 5:00pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

“Quite simple: The Orville is the new Star Trek. Discovery is one dark grim one person mess.”

Some of us don’t like The Orville and could do without the viral marketing popping into our Trek discussions.
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Rinzwind
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 4:18pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

Quite simple: The Orville is the new Star Trek. Discovery is one dark grim one person mess.
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KT
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 2:59pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@JP
"What establishes the Federation's claim to this uninhabited area of space?"

As mentioned in the episode there's a nearby Starbase and Andorian Colony.

"The Klingons clearly felt that their artifact gave them the claim"

Where did you get this impression from? what Burnham initially describes as 'an artifact' was actually a ship covered in coffins. She and Saru work this out later on in the first episode. I recall that, in a later episode, TKuvma said that he got the ship back up and running after it was laying in ruins from the generation before. So it definitely hasn't been up in space in the same spot for thousands of years.

"You just said that the Klingons "lay in wait in order to start a war""

I said the above because we know they did, from the dialogue that we were privy too which SF were not.

"but now you claim that no one suggested that"

That's not what I claimed. I said that no one assumed that Klingons are trying to start a war based solely on their "Damaging a minor, unmanned sensor relay on the outskirts of Federation space" -which is what you claimed I claimed.

If you can't keep straight what you're talking about from one post to the next I suggest you accept that this is all too much for you and give up.
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JP
Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 2:21pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@KT Whatever limited interactions there might have been over the last hundred years, there clearly aren't active diplomatic relations between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Without a treaty that defines a border, who is to say where the Federation border exists to the Klingons, or where the Klingon border exists to the Federation? What establishes the Federation's claim to this uninhabited area of space? A sole communications relay? The Klingons clearly felt that their artifact gave them the claim--and according to Burnham, the Klingon artifact is "centuries old." This suggests that the Federation may have inadvertently encroached upon Klingon space. The fact that the Federation's borders are expanding makes this an even more likely possibility.

You just said that the Klingons "lay in wait in order to start a war" but now you claim that no one suggested that. Like the writers of Discovery, you seem to have trouble maintaining continuity from one idea to the next.
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