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Ali
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 10:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Inner Light

My favourite episode. Cry every time.
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Jack
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 10:40pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

"I'm also not sure why they needed to change the character's personality."

Did they? We're not seeing the over-the-top Roger C. Carmel smarm, I suppose, but the TOS Mudd was plenty dark. Even darker, I'd say.

And on to the gay thing -- apply the argument "I shouldn't have to see _________ in my living room" to any other kind of human being, and see how ridiculous it sounds.

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micholas
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 10:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: I, Borg

Personally, I think Picard has blood on his hands. His inaction allowed the borg to continue assimilating cultures and the loss of further federation lives when they attacked again. Picard knew the Borg would return and he had no guarantee that the Borg wouldn't return with 100 cubes to wipe out the federation.

The fact that Admiral Nechayev chews Picard out over this in 'Descent' shows that at least some of the writers thought that Picard's decision in the episode was the wrong one.

one star from me.
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Steven
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 9:57pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Final thought on the spore drive: I just read a possible solution elsewhere, to explain the disappearance of the tech by the end of the series.

And it's pretty much the only explanation that works (see my previous posts for less-than-stellar suggestions how to explain the tech away). Here it goes: The spore network gets infected somehow and then seizes to exist.

Admittedly, such an infection would take some time to spread, but maybe the Klingons distribute it actively as a counter-measure against the drive. Everywhere in their territory. Which would basically make the spore network useless as a weapon against the Klingons. And maybe the spores only cover Federation and Klingon space anyway, and not the whole universe. Maybe the Tardigrade animals, who are said to be "600 million years of evolution apart from humans" (in the episode) started spreading from earth a long time ago, while the network itself was growing. And by today, it covers basically parts of Federation and Klingon space.

Those would actually be workable explanations, but the writers will probably screw it up somehow. I don't have a huge trust in them.
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Trek fan
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 9:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

I give this one 2 1/2 stars. While I appreciated the character development for Burnham and Sara and Lorca, "Choose Your Pain" (as evidenced by the title reference) is a superficial outing that devolves into the kind of gun-and-run hostage filler we saw on "Enterprise" week after week. The part that worked best for me was the gradual reconciliation of Saru and Burnham; everything else was hit-or-miss.

So the good and bad: I enjoyed seeing Harry Mudd -- who was reference briefly in "Into Darkness" -- reimagined and some emerging chemistry among the leads. I'm sorry Ripper departed, as I thought he/she/it was going to become a regular crew member and learn how to communicate with Burnham somehow, but I hope the creature returns to the crew at some point. The tardigrade was a wholly alien and yet familiar form of life that I'm sorry the series seems to have passed up on exploring more deeply. I thought the F-bombs made sense for Tilly's character, who seems to have Tourette's syndrome, but I hope they don't become a regular fixture of the show. Finally, I thought the final scene between Stamets and the doctor felt a bit awkward and forced, as it wasn't clear from the final "shocker" tease in the mirror whether Stamets was being himself with his boyfriend in the dialogue -- perhaps not the best way to introduce a new relationship on the series, as we don't have an established sense of these two guys yet for the final shot to mean anything.

Finally, I think the newness factor of the Klingons is starting to wear off for me, as they are starting to look more like typical Star Trek thugs in masks firing guns and throwing punches. Considering how well the Klingons have already been mapped on Trek for 50 years, I don't see many places for our interactions with them to go on "Discovery." I'm glad the show is easing up on the subtitles in this one, as it really makes it hard to enjoy the performances, but the torture-and-escape sequences here just barely rise above routine due to some interesting takes (including the presence of Mudd) on the material. The whole Lorca kidnapping subplot is watchable, but this episode feels more like a filler between more significant shows than a memorable adventure in its own right. Other than getting rid of Ripper and healing some of the Saru-Burnham rift, there's not much to speak of, as the plot settles for a familiar two-tiered structure with someone stranded and the rest of the crew attempting a rescue -- this is stuff we saw frequently on TOS fifty years ago, not to mention all of the subsequent Trek series! Stamets using the spore drive on himself was interesting, but I fear it's going to be a fairly shallow tease that's resolved by the end of next week's episode rather than developing into anything significant. And I didn't like the idea of Lorca killing his own crew to save them from Klingons; that doesn't sound like the kind of thing one would do in Starfleet and simply get passed along to another command. Hmm.

Overall, a pleasant and watchable
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Trek fan
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 9:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: Amok Time

Four stars! Inexplicable to me that Jammer gives it only 3 without really justifying why it isn't a half-star or full star higher. This is definitely better than some of Jammer's four-star episodes: Indeed it's one of the most iconic and memorable Star Trek episodes ever.

It's the first fully character-driven episode on TOS, giving us our deepest dive (at this point) into Spock's inner workings and culture and relationship to his friends Kirk and Spock. But it's also, of all the thousands of Star Trek episodes, the one that fleshes out an alien culture best. Forget the Klingons, because the Vulcans remain the most fully-developed and believable aliens on Star Trek, and a big part of that starts here with the rituals and hand salute.

But the show is just plain fun too, not merely something to watch because a Trek nerd tells you "hey this episode is Really Important to the Made-Up History of This Show." Chapel and all of the regulars, especially the big three, are fully developed here. Going beyond the "crew forced to fight each other" theme that becomes cliche after this episode, we have the added tension of the "Captain is Forced to Fight His Best Friend to the Death" idea, and for once there's actually no obvious cheat! It's really clever how the characters find a way to care for each other here. Their friendship and camaraderie comes across so genuinely here, and the chemistry is undeniably appealing. There are too many cool concepts and touches in this one to list, but the story -- dependent so much on Vulcan culture and yet truly clever in the way it unfolds -- is especially excellent and so organic to the main characters. I love Amok Time!
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Steven
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 8:54pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

"The story about Lorca abandoning his ship and killing his entire crew just made me laugh out loud. For those that are familiar with TNG Recut Picard, Lorca basically IS that person. LOL. Is this real life?"

I know people who were mildly optimistic about the show at first, then slowly started to realize they don't enjoy it and found themselves spending 75% of their time with getting aggravated about the nonsense that we're shown each week, and now by the fifth episode they only see this show as satire, because that's the only way to enjoy it light-heartedly. I'm not that cynical yet, and I think when I reach that point, watching the show will become kind of pointless.

The characters are kind of ridiculous, yes. That Klingon commander has nothing better to do than, erm, keeping a human sex slave for herself for 7 months? Are humans so appealing to Klingons? Shouldn't Klingons, you know, try to follow their ideology of staying pure? So how does that work - fighting the good fight during daytime, and then jumping in bed with the enemy in nighttime? The Klingons come across as little more than gorillas (think King Kong), who find a "liking" to a "tender white woman".

Congrats for re-introducing all the old tropes of the "primitive savage" etc. to this show. No, this isn't Star Trek.
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Hunter
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 8:39pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

The story about Lorca abandoning his ship and killing his entire crew just made me laugh out loud. For those that are familiar with TNG Recut Picard, Lorca basically IS that person. LOL. Is this real life?
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Steven
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 8:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Speaking of Voyager, the Warp 10 discovered by Tom Paris had the exact same problem as the new spore drive: It got simply explained away by "yeah, would be the coolest tech ever, but it mutates the pilot... so we're never going to mention it again!"

For good reason, "Threshold" is considered by many as one of the worst Voyager episodes because it introduces this wonder tech and then never mentions it again. Did we need a repeat of this on "Discovery"? Not really.
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Garak
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 8:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

One poster above called this the worst scripted show in the history of television. While I'm not sure I'd yet go that far-I've seen some horrible shows-I can certainly sympathize with that view.

I'm embarrassed.

As someone who desperately wanted a return of television Trek, I'm so very disappointed. I won't even attempt to criticize the latest episode. You do that when you care. You do that when you hope that things will get better.

Five episodes in, DSC has so completely missed the mark that I've lost faith in any chance that it can turn around.

If this is what Star Trek has become, I want absolutely no part of it.

Hopefully, my favorite television franchise will find its singular voice again in some later iteration.
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Steven
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 8:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

"Steven - We still don't know the consequences of using humans with the drive. Let's wait until we see what happens to Stamets (likely next week). If he turns into a mass murderer and attempts to destroy the ship, that might be enough for them to ban the tech."

I already accounted for that possibility when I wrote the tech would still be used in emergencies - when the sacrifice of a single crewmember is preferrable to the destruction of the whole ship. There are so many TNG and Voyager episodes where they are caught in some anomaly or nebula and lose their warp drive, and the destruction of the ship is imminent. In such a situation, they would surely use the spore drive. Hell, Janeway would probably sacrifice herself as the pilot, in order to get her crew home from the Delta quadrant, or at least cut a significant portion off their journey.

The only good explanation is that the tech gets classified and buried forever. I would actually have enjoyed seeing Discovery being a "Section 31" ship that DOESN'T take any commands from Starfleet and is a completely seperate entity. That might have worked. But now, Starfleet is already crying out for installation of the tech on as many ships as possible. How are they going to solve this believably? I have no idea.
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Shannon
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 8:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Another solid outing for Discovery. This week we saw continued character development of not just Burnham, but other supporting cast members, most notably Lorca, Saru, and Stamets. Even Lilly got in there a little bit. I loved the moral dilemma they faced, and the diverse ways everyone approached it. Burnham is sympathizing with this sentient creature that's in agony, and she manages to convince Stamets with the help of the doctor. Saru is struggling with suddenly being thrust into command, and takes a very pragmatic, almost academic approach to the issue without considering the ethical ramifications. He sees the world as black and white, and it was a nice touch to see him consulting the computer to learn about successful command styles. Lorca's imprisonment on the Klingon ship was quite tense, and nice tip of the hat to TOS with the casting of Mudd. Never liked him much in the original series, but here we get to see what a truly backstabbing worm he really is. Loved it! I also liked how Saru came around to understanding Burnham's position, and orders her to save the creature, which Lilly and she are able to do by freeing it... This episode had a lot of great "Trek" in it, but told in a more modern way... 3.5 stars from me!
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Startrekwatcher
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 8:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

I think I’m done with DIS. It just isn’t a very good Star Trek series and not even entertaining as mindless entertainment

It’s shallow and slick looking but not much there. The writers clearly don’t care and aren’t forced by the studio to do better. The show is just a concoction of half baked concepts with the visual there FX to compensate. The show looks nothing like it takes place a decade before TOS. The writers just shoehorn anything TOS in thinking fans will be so tickled they’ll overlook its deficiencies. The show is poorly plotted. There’s no urgency to the narrative. The players are treated to random characterization. Frankly the whole endeavor lacks soul— it’s an empty shell. The basic skills of good writing craftsmanship clearly elude these writers.

What I would have preferred after deliberation is something akin to the x files, Roseanne and Will and grace revivals. Basically forgetting the last few bad parts of the series and picking back up essentially with the series in its heyday like no time has passed and the characters were doing what they were in those glory days. CBS should have justvrevived TNG, the ENT D, and transport us bavk to the height of modern Trek popularity and bring back the TnG writers like Melinda snodgrass, Brannon Braga, joe menosky, Jeri Taylor, Ron Moore, Rene echrvarria and solicit fan scripts
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JPaul
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 8:07pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

There was a hint at the end that something is not right with Stamets after the jump so I expect it to be the focus of at least one episode. I think he'll go insane or wind up being coopted by some outside force due to the jump experience.

After 5 episodes I am no longer sure why they called this "Discovery" when "Horror" would be a much more appropriate title. Zach Snyder gets a lot of flak for turning the DC hero universe into a dark murderverse, but what he's done is nothing compared to what's going on here. I can't imagine what Roddenberry would think if he were alive to see what his creation has been turned into.
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Trent
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 8:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Stephen said: "Finally, the spore network could be something like a neural network, an advanced intelligence, capable of allowing or disallowing the use of their realm - like the Prophets on DS9."

Speaking of super intelligences, could Discovery be working its way toward introducing the Organians?
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Thomas
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 8:02pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Steven - We still don't know the consequences of using humans with the drive. Let's wait until we see what happens to Stamets (likely next week). If he turns into a mass murderer and attempts to destroy the ship, that might be enough for them to ban the tech.
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Trent
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 7:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Stamets and the Doctor saved this episode for me. Stamets, up to this point an abrasive character (with good reason), has revealed himself fully; a scientist, a man with a conscience and "soul", and one who is opposed to militarism.

I also like the Doctor; he has a quiet dignity about him. I've liked the actor since his days in MY SO CALLED LIFE, too, where he played one of the first young gay men on mainstream TV.

Now you can argue that this duo's "gay scene" at the end of the episode was cheap sensationalism, and that the writing was poor, but the actual warmth of the actors I felt was very good, and I thought the subtext of their relationship was very interesting (they're both obviously very moral characters, both obsessed with love and life, the doc in saving lives, the engineer in charting webs of life which run throughout the fabric of the universe itself).

What I hated was the F-bomb, which was obvious edginess for the sake of edginess. It's Discovery pandering to trends and market demographics. Indeed, that's the problem with the whole series; a trendy, crowdpleasing war plot - filled with the usual modern tropes - for the masses, with little injections of "Trek nerdiness and moralising" for the core fanbase.

Also, has anyone tried "binge watching" the past episodes? IMO, the entire serialized format just seems so disposable. I tried rewatching last week's episode, and turned it off after 10 minutes. Like a soap-opera, the raisen-detre of each episode is simply in the consumption of plot. And once you know the direction of each episode's plot, there is little that is interesting about each episode.

The shape of each episode is also less beautiful than an old-school Trek episode. Old school Trek episodes utilize clean 3 or 5 act structures, but Discovery's writing seems more loose and haphazard, in such a way that watching individual episodes as standalone entities becomes very unsatisfying.

Incidentally, I've been watching TOS. Watching Kirk and the gang made me realize that Discovery's entire first season would have been typically handled in a single Kirk episode. All the talk that modern TV is "faster paced" is a kind of lie. Average shot length and narrative brevity aren't the same thing.
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Steven
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 7:52pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Afterthought: I think the only thing that could work would be to classify the whole thing, never use it on another starship and swear the crew to lifelong secrecy. (Solution 1 from my previous post.) But there are currently no indications for this. First of all, the technical description of the technology is surely already in Starfleet headquarters, because they can't risk leaving these military secrets to just one ship which can be destroyed at any time (meaning a possible loss of the technology). So the blueprints are likely already in Starfleet's hands.

Now, what can possibly lead to burying this tech forever? If Starfleet has the blueprints, then the decision is already out of the hands of the Discovery's crew.

I see no satisfying way to resolve this and I think whatever explanations they'll come up with will probably be less-than-believable.
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Jack Strawb
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 7:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

A truly inane episode. Just the absurdities i noticed and typed up while the episode was in progress.

"We've captured the captain we believe to be the most critical piece of this existential war we're engaged in.... let's randomly torture his cellmates!!" (Because the fool showrunner thought "choose your pain" was a cooler game than having an actual, coherent plot.)

--Oh, and there they are, stuck in Klingon space, and this critical starship doesn't have a backup warp drive because tension!!

--So despite running a war-changing secret weapon, Captain Lorca has no security guard, at all?

--And they were somewhere in Fed space they could be captured? Near wherever it was this meeting was held? (Even though, if you have holograms that cross hundreds of light years, why does your most important captain have to ever get in a shuttle, especially in wartime?) The showrunners literally don't care about space, how big it is, what is involved in getting from one place to the next... Things are randomly placed wherever they need to be to propel the random action.

--Is it a shuttle with warp drive? Ten years before TOS? And if it doesn't have warp drive surely it's deep in Federation space since Lorca is meeting in person with Federation officials, but Klingons just happen to be able to find them despite not only being deep in Fed space, but because they were able to crack Fed codes and find out who and what Lorca is and where he'd be because plot. Jaysus.

You realize none of this makes any sense, right?

--The "Klingons" are simply repulsive monsters with gigantic football shaped heads, and once we get to the prison cell Lorca flinches like a little girl as they beat another prisoner, because that's what battle hardened war lovers do, right?

-- The dialogue between Mudd and Lorca is largely nonsensical, and in the worst possible way. “Starfleet didn’t start this war,” says Lorca, who last week told Burnham “you started a war. Don’t you want to help me stop it?” So does this singularly essential captain even know who started the war? When the writers don't even care enough to keep track of who started the war that is the centerpiece of the show, how can you expect the show to succeed?

-- And now instead of being a source of good, productive, generous order, Starfleet is just a bunch of arrogant bullies?

-- And Mudd was once upon a time an honest businessman? Alex Kurtzman: “If something's canon, we will hold it down and feck it to death.”

--Worst exposition dump ever wrt the tardigrade. Let's have our characters stand stock still and read the badly, hastily written scene off of cue cards. Painful stuff.

-- Discovery as a show depends, really, on a stupid populace unable to discern coherence from idiocy. -- Btw, I can come up with a superior alternative to spore drive in five minutes. A creature more in tune with quantum foam and the properties specific its various locations in the galaxy (since foam is known to exist everywhere). Quantum coherence causes the physical need of particles to reconnect with certain arrangements of the foam, which in turn allows the ship to travel to its matching location. Then you don't need the joke that spores have rightly become. And you actually get to teach some physics instead of some nonsense.

-- No, seriously, this happened... as they escape, Lorca leaves the lieutenant behind in the corridor because the guy is literally too weak to walk even with assistance. Less than a minute later, he’s nonetheless recovered enough to beat almost to death an adult Klingon in battle garb.

-- Oh, and Discovery is in Klingon space so without the tardigrade they can’t find their way out because, magically, space is no longer three dimensional and navigation has magically ceased to otherwise exist. Discovery can no longer simply point in the direction of federation space, and "engage." Fookin fookety fook, this is awful.

-- Yeah, and now Saru likes Burnham, even though as he says she once again disobeys a direct order, and suddenly he no longer thinks she's dangerous because, who the feck knows.

-- No, the ship spinning is effing ludicrous. It’s beyond ludicrous. The ship does a barrel roll. Think about it. A barrel roll. There is no possible physics requiring a barrel roll, and plenty of physics insisting that’s a truly bad, bad idea. Just stop.  

--It appears the Starfleet lieutenant was raped for seven months while being held on the "klingon" ship. This passed without comment.

- A "Klingon" prison ship just warped into federation space without anybody noticing, apparently.

--The massive "klingon" ship has a crew complement of 30 or 40? As we know, Klingons don't take prisoners, but this is a dedicated prison ship, somehow? Two starship officers, one dedicated to war and killing, idly watch as Mudd steals their food?

--Discovery has 134 crew members, but can run 300 science experiments at once?

The problems range from small to overwhelming, and the overall problems are these: This a series that actively disregards its predecessor material, that doesn't care at all about space--the very medium in which it purports to occur, and doesn't even know who started its war, when that war is central both to the plot and to its main character.

This is the worst plotted, worst thought out tv series i've ever seen (not Trek, but all of tv), and i don't think there's a close second. This is horrendous on every level of scripting. It's an abomination that can't get canceled soon enough.
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Derek
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 7:36pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: The Enterprise Incident

A good episode, but I have never thought quite as highly of it as most of the rest of you. There are many aspects i really like: Kirk faking like he's lost it, the scene when Scotty finds Kirk made up like a Romulan, the dialogue between Kirk and the Romulan commander. What i didn't like was how incredibly easily the Romulan commander was duped, the incredibly awkward and uncomfortably drawn out "romance," how ridiculously easy it was to steal (and install--in 15 minutes no less!) the cloaking device, the fact that the Romulans didn't have their shields up in the middle of a confrontation with the Enterprise and let them beam back so easily. 2 1/2 stars.
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Steven
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 7:34pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

"In the main Gestapory is Trek amateur hour with lots of money thrown at it. The lack of having a real brain on the project shows. It's like having a bunch of eight year olds flying a space shuttle. It looks at first glance like a scientific mission until you observe the piloting and realize it's more like an expensive go-kart."

That's why it's so weird to me that a certain bunch of Trek fans (and I mean intelligent fans, not dummies) still say they like the new show. I see the show as pretty amateurish too, and if we're going to use the same rating scale as for the other Trek shows (0-4 stars), I can't go higher than 1.5 here.

To another topic, one thing I noticed in this episode is that the whole thing with the spore drive will never fit with the rest of the ST universe. So, they've established now that a human, injected with some Tardigrade DNA, can be a substitute "navigator". Then why doesn't Picard, or Janeway, do that as a "last resort", whenever their ship is caught in an anomaly, the warp drive is offline and they somehow need to get out? What could be the downside? I see only three ways to explain this tech away:

1. The tech is never given to other Starfleet ships and generally stays classified/gets buried. Seems unlikely, because there are already plans in place to install the tech on as many ships as possible, as the Admiral said.

2. The moral price is too high: If it turns out that the jumps are somehow hurting sentient lifeforms (who live in that area of subspace), the tech can be forbidden. However, there is one problem with this explanation: Let's say this is revealed by the end of season 1, then in retrospect it'll be clear that the Discovery crew is a bunch of mass murderers. Would do the series too much harm, I think. The re-watch value would be really know, if you already know they are committing mass murder with every jump during season 1.

3. Finally, the spore network could be something like a neural network, an advanced intelligence, capable of allowing or disallowing the use of their realm - like the Prophets on DS9. They could say at some point "Humanoid species will no longer be granted access to our network!" and at this point the spore drive simply becomes unusable. However, this is also highly problematic for a couple of reasons. Assuming such an intelligence that permeates the whole universe is a weird concept to begin with. As problematic is the question why humans would be the first to attempt to use the network; surely there were advanced civilizations millions of years ago, which have been mentioned on Trek, who would have tried out the spore drive at some point. And then the "super-intelligence" decides to shut it down for all eternity, because humanoids can't be trusted... or something like that. On the other hand, if only us humans are explicitly forbidden from using the network, Starfleet could simply use other species as navigators.

None of these explanations would be in any way elegant and they're all somewhat problematic. I think the door to explain this tech away *in an elegant fashion* has already been shut.
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Derek
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 7:20pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: Is There In Truth No Beauty?

I agree with SteveRage that this episode was vile for all the reasons he gave above. 1 star.
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Yanks
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 7:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

E2,

That's a possibility, but I don't think so. We'll see.

I just watched it again. I failed to mention that I the Saru killed it in the Captain's chair.

Also, the mirror scene at the end... What do you all think the remaining reflection for lack of a better way to put it means? Are we in a mirror universe?
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JohnTY
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 7:02pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

@wolfstar Well said.

Although I don't mind Stamets as a character. He's the geek scientist whose experiment has been commandeered by warmongers - kind of reminds me of Merritt Butrick's character in STII/III.
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Baron Samedi
Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 6:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Carbon Creek

This episode has so much heart. Probably my biggest disagreement with Jammer since "Balance of Terror". Strong 3.5 from me.
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