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- Fri, Aug 22, 2014, 12:51am (USA Central)
Who Watches the Watchers
@Falconus: ironic that you would choose the word "demonised" since the concept of the demon is a unique product of religion itself. Religion has a way of damning itself, and bureucracies have a way of magnifying inherent faults. Granting political, bureucractic power to formalised collective wishful thinking is sinister in my book.
- Fri, Aug 22, 2014, 12:38am (USA Central)
Some technicalities about this story.
So nodes from dead drones won't work, and Janeway doesn't want to kill a living one to procure the component, gotcha. But how about the obvious next option? The borg don't sacrifice themselves to make new drones, so vessels must have stockpiles of pre-initiated nodes ready, to support their ambition. I'm sure there must have been some in that same debris field they were at.
Second story technicality: Ichep brought up a good point about his young age helping his adaptation to life without a node. But what about the other children they left behind on so and so planet? Their lifespans won't be much longer than twenty years unless their nodes are removed too.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 11:34pm (USA Central)
Somebody earlier made a comment likening this to Birthright, and I agree. Unfortunately, I find 'office romance' less compelling of an idea compared to 'regaining lost culture'. The execution here is a bit better, but only because of better acting. There's almost nothing for me to chew on here that isn't just piggybacking off of the Inner Light. It just doesn't feel like there's any inventiveness in the writing (compare with the ideas floating around in "Perfect Mate"), and the overall story and directing feel stale. I'm beginning to see why people say season 6 is where the show starts to feel 'tired'. I'm a bit harsher on the scale than Jammer; I'd probably hand this a low 2 or a high 1.5 stars. Whereas Birthright as a whole I'd feel okay with giving 2.5 stars.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 10:04pm (USA Central)
Birthright, Part II
This is a hard pair of episodes to judge - interesting ideas but the execution is mixed.
I pretty much agree with everything you're saying here. Especially:
"that plot point was dropped like a hot potato and nothing of any relevance came out of it. And naturally the relationship was dropped immediately after the episode ended. It should never have happened at all."
I know, right? Just like the Tasha Yar thing on Yesterday's Enterprise. Why doesn't anybody complain about that one?
(PS: I know there's no adult+teenager ick-factor in YesEnt, I'm just still trying to figure out why people like that episode so much)
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 8:58pm (USA Central)
Who Watches the Watchers
What is this "organized religion" that is being demonized?
It's nothing more than two or more people agreeing on a particular metaphysical premise. There's nothing sinister about that, nor much of anything to distinguish it from the vague "spirituality" that you find acceptable.
Now I'm disappointed because I don't know if this actually worth watching, or if evangelical atheists are just praising it because they agree with the message.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 8:00pm (USA Central)
I loved how faddil played the changeling disguised as bashir when o'brien catches him in the tube. It was oh so slightly off, but not obvious.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 7:26pm (USA Central)
The Siege of AR-558
Wow, I'll review this tomorrow.
I still say Gene would have approved of DS9.
We didn't start the "war" with the Borg, but we fought it. The ever proper Picard lost it in the battle process as well. If it weren't for Lilly, he might have just lost the battle in FC. Hell, Picard was going to infect Hugh and commit genocide until he heard him say "I".
We didn't start the war in DS9 either. Does anyone for a moment think the Founders could have been talked out of imposing order on the Alpha Quadrant?
DS9 showed us how humans react to war in the 24th century. And the simple fact is, we all will do anything to protect what is ours, and our families. So episodes like ITPM are realistic. All Star Trek incarnations did this. Kirk attacked a Romulan war bird to protect our posts and prevent a war. Picard attacked the Borg, Janeway battled the Borg and Archer Battled the Xindi. The difference is DS9 actually had to deal with a war.
This episode, in the universe that has Jem'Hadar and Klingons as ground soldiers required the Federation to respond in kind. I personally do not think ground soldiers would ever be necessary in the 24th century where star ships are commonplace, but that's not the setting we were given. So this episode is pertinent and situations like this could happen.
While Star Trek is not dystopian, it's not utopian either aside from Earth.
See you guys tomorrow, my Steelers are on.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 7:24pm (USA Central)
"Why do you think everyone absolutely hates this episode?"
What am I supposed to be convinced by peer pressure, here?
The episode is NOT saying that an entire species ought to die, it's saying that one human captain and one Denobulan doctor don't have the right to make that determination for an entire species.
You're being completely myopic about the issue. To your point of view, the debate begins and ends at the loss of life. What a terribly narrow vision.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 7:11pm (USA Central)
"It wasn't stupidity (for once), it was naïvety."
Actually, it was stupidity. You've got a ship that's designed for exploration and scanning planets. So they should have known, before going down to it, that there was a virus down there that was deadly to humans. Unless they just go down to every planet without scanning it first, in which case they should have been dead long before that episode.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 7:10pm (USA Central)
I wasn't saying the Prime Directive isn't a major component of Trek lore. It is. And it's a good one. I'm saying that the episodes where, like this one or Time and Again, the episode tries to say that standing by and letting an entire species die for no reason is a good thing as an interpretation of the prime directive are the outliers. Why do you think everyone absolutely hates this episode? Because it's not normal for Star Trek to act like this.
Most of the time in Star Trek, the prime directive is not interpreted as "stand by and let people die after they ask for your help, even if you can save them." We've seen time and time again where Starfleet has helped save lives when asked.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 6:07pm (USA Central)
Once More Unto the Breach
Oh wow, thanks Alvin. I was not aware that John Colicos passed away so shortly after filming this. That kind of elevates this episode for me.
I really felt for Kor when he approached Worf to help him die as he lived... as a warrior.
I can understand Martok's disdain for Kor. From his perspective he's royalty and didn't want him to get a commission.
I also love the story of Martok's path to a commission. A boy from the Ketha lowlands earned a battlefield commission. This guy is a true Klingon Warrior.
I personally thought the ending was perfect. Kor was an unseen legend for everyone on the ship but Darok and they personally get to tell another story about the Dahar Master while drinking blood wine. Hell Martok may just tell this one.
Thank god they sent this actor and character out on a high note. I would have hated it if the last time we saw Kor was in 'The Sword of Kahless'
Was there a B story?
4 stars for KOR the GREAT DAHAR MASTER!!! (raise mug of 2309)
"MARTOK: To Kor. A Dahar Master and noble warrior to the end."
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 5:37pm (USA Central)
Treachery, Faith, and the Great River
Quarky - I guess Nog shorted himself. Rom is a genius (technically).
Finally!! DS9 is back on track!
Jeffrey Combs is just frelling out of this world good.
It was great learning about the Vorta (whether it is true or not, I think it was). Combs manages to make us feel for him (while probably not all Vorta).
"ODO: Has it ever occurred to you that the reason you believe the Founders are gods is because that's what they want you to believe? That they built that into your genetic code?
WEYOUN: Of course they did. That's what gods do. After all, why be a god if there's no one to worship you?" ... lol
"ODO: You have. And for that you have my gratitude, and my blessing."
I'm glad Odo gave Weyoun his blessing. Classy.
Of course the big reveal is that the Founders are dying... and for some reason Odo isn't. Now Odo thinks no matter who wins, he is going to lose.
For all you Nog haters... all he does is put forth the max effort in everything he does. Can't blame the writers for giving him more screen time than Jake. Jake chose to be a writer and a wuss, not many great stories there.
Just love the B plot. As a military guy I always appreciated those that could "acquire" stuff.
The Sisko desk bit was pretty darn funny.
"NOG: I never lost faith in the Great Material Continuum." :-)
Love this one all around.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 5:16pm (USA Central)
Second Season Recap
"[W]hich is more impacting in dramatic terms: The notion that you have to change to fit new situations, or the notion that you have to stay the same to fit new situations? I'm inclined to say the former, but the episode claims the latter. As a result, the show has "naive" written all over it, and what could've been very striking and consequential in storytelling terms is instead quite lightweight and even presumptuous."
This. THIIIIIIS... It's been a while since I've directly addressed a Jammer comment, but I have to spit this back; Jammer is "inclined to say the former [you have to change]" and as "a result, the show [is] 'naïve." So, if the show doesn't do what you expect or want it to, it is naïve. This is every major Voyager criticism neatly packaged into ironically presumptuous idea.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 4:53pm (USA Central)
Voyager's adaptive and ever-growing EMH is falling for a dying Vidiian woman (temporarily as a hologram) in the latter stages of the Phage. Knowing the track record of ST romantic bottle episodes are spotty at best, this seems like a setup for failure. Fortunately it is anything but.
This is the way to do a quiet sleeper love story on Star Trek without being a purely fluff piece. Some very touching and poignant characterizations, genuinely human lighthearted moments without being cloying, and a nice take on the subject involving the unfortunate treatment of people with illness.
The subplots involving Paris and Judas, er, Jonas are interesting enough and neither add nor detract from the overall quality.
Up to this point, we have four quality showings of Voyager out of the last six. This proves my theory that the writers had the ability to, not only match the potential that was always there, but to be fairly consistent as well.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 4:07pm (USA Central)
Year of Hell, Part II
What the hell kind of show would that be? Even on BSG, they realised about about a quarter of the way through the first season that they couldn't set a show constantly on a rickety, barely functioning ship (thus, Cloud Nine). If they ended this episode as you suggest, the show would have been over by the end of the season--unless they found some other magical reset-device to fix the ship and restore Tuvok or give him a VISOR--which would be a whole different set of reasons for people to complain without end about magic resets.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 3:52pm (USA Central)
Year of Hell, Part II
Well, the tricky part with any story involving time travel is that you have to give the author a little leeway simply because there is no "correct" way to depict it since (so far as we know) it doesn't exist. You also have to consider what makes an interesting story, so sometimes it may be necessary to sacrifice whatever type of "realistic" time travel you have settled on. That said, I still expect at least some degree of consistency with how time travel is treated and Voyager was just not very good at it.
It was obvious in this one at the first moment of a significant change to the crew that by the end everything would be reset by the end, which is disappointing. Imagine if they would've ended this episode by destroying the weapon ship and just carried on with all the damage that had been done, both to the ship and to the crew. Tuvok having to deal with being blind, the Doc's opinion of Janeway's judgement marred, most of the crew scattered about in escape pods and shuttles, the ship just barely functional.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 3:33pm (USA Central)
Despite a few moments of silliness, this is a standout episode that manages to meld serious topics of suicide and euthanasia with a bit of the whimsical elements notorious in Q showings without conflicting each other. Some stellar dialogue and great performances seal the deal in what is classic Q and classic Trek.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 2:37pm (USA Central)
It wasn't stupidity (for once), it was naïvety. You know there is a difference between dying and going extinct right?
You are of course free to have your own opinion about what is right and wrong, I was simply pointing out that Star Trek, the franchise, has never plainly laid out a morality as you depicted it. Those "contradictory" episodes (I don't find them contradictory, by the way, they are an elaboration on Trek morality) are not outliers; the Prime Directive is a major component of Trek lore and thus form an integral part of the universe's ethical model.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 2:13pm (USA Central)
Jammers review hit the nail on the head here. Decent enough episode with some pretty good person vs. computer moments but not much else beyond that. I won't dwell on the improbability of coming across the missile in the first place. Improbable doesn't mean impossible. The episode is what it is and it's not half bad despite the lackluster ending.
The ongoing scenario with Paris shows that Voyager has elements that have continuity within the series. It doesn't mean the show itself is strong with continuity. If you put pieces of chocolate in vanilla ice cream; it doesn't suddenly make the ice cream chocolate. Though, I will admit, I have seen in this forum and others that people tend to overstate the lack of continuity of this series. Just my opinion anyway.
Watchable. Some good performances. Nothing spectacular.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 2:04pm (USA Central)
Patrick impersonating an ADM!!! LOL!!! “That’s a stupid question too” :)
Hey Sisko, Star Fleet isn’t interested in someone dressing up as an ADM… especially one of this group.
I'm glad they brought the "mutants" back. They are an enjoyable bunch to watch for an episode.
I'm glad Bashir was able to cure Sarina. Faith Salie's acting as Sariana comes to life was fantastic.
But this episode takes a HUGE nose-dive because Bashir .... I mean for gods sake. This is worse than Dax wanting to throw everything away in Meridian.
I would have given this episode a 3 star rating, but I can't. Bashir's transgressions knock it down to 2 stars.
Do the writers even give a shit anymore?
Are there any standards left on this show?
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 1:19pm (USA Central)
Children of Time
^ yeah, Odo did it to save Kira, but if you love someone would you really actually tell them that? It would make her feel guilty if anything,
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 12:57pm (USA Central)
Absolutely intriguing and probing episode that utilizes the two characters inner struggles with violent tendencies in a conceptually brilliant way. The interplay between Suder and Tuvok where they slowly "mirror" each other is nothing short of fantastic. Questions of rehabilitation versus punishment; vengeance versus justice; when it comes to the individual is it truly black and white in every case? Or is it another gray area like most things in life? Philosophically speaking, this is one of the most unique episodes of Star Trek as it's presented here. A lot of credit to the writers is due.
I really can't see any fault with this one. Some very meaty dialogue in many scenes, great directing, standout performances, and an attention-grabbing premise. I disagree with Jammers nitpick about the ease of which Tuvok's mental disciplines were shattered. Suder is a Betazoid.
There was a comment above on how the episode fails because there's crew members involved that have never appeared on screen. Really? There's over 150 people on the ship at this point. All with varying shifts in their respective departments. I guess you would have to discount a lot of other ST episodes that involve crew members you've never seen. I make it a habit to not say anything on older comments, but I found this particular one rather...silly. No offense.
The B story for me is a non-issue. It simply is what it is and there's not enough of it to interfere, for better or worse, with the main plot.
This is one of my favorite episodes of Voyager and is also the first one to hit it out of the ballpark. Not phenomenal but extremely well done. Kudos.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 12:57pm (USA Central)
Take Me Out to the Holosuite
Should we have this episode now? I guess the writers thought so. The war is only important when the writers say so you know. It IS light-years better than other "filler episodes" like "Profit and Lace" etc... (insert dumb Ferengi episode of choice) I'm glad this episode didn't make it in the "we didn't get to it" pile. That would have been a shame.
I'm a baseball guy. I played and have coached quite a bit. This episode was an absolute riot.
I won’t go through all the cliché’s as everyone else has hit on them. I'll just list a couple moments that stood out to me.
- Rom getting kicked off then agreeing with getting kicked off the team.
"ROM: But it should. You're good at it. (to Leeta) So are you, and I want to see you play. I want to see all of you play. I want to see our team beat the Vulcans, even if I'm only watching from the, the er
NOG: The stands?
ROM: Right. Please?"
That's so Rom...
Then, the best part of this show and arguably the whole series is when Sisko via Coach O'Brien puts Rom back in the game with the support of his teammates. Rom enters, as only Rom can, humble as Rom always is, then Sisko turns back on the crowd for him. If this doesn't put a lump in your throat (whether you know or like baseball or not) you have no heart or soul, you will not gain entrance to Stovokor and may the prophets give you the KIA Winn treatment.
The conflict between Sisko and Solok mirrors that of the Dominion war. The Federation faces an enemy many times more powerful than itself, yet they continue to fight and continue to take pleasure in whatever small victories they can achieve. We all know sometimes their victories are just lucky, just like Rom's "hit" when he was trying to figure out the bunt sign.
Overall, this is one of the most intelligently written humor episodes ever. It was nice seeing the crew working together on something other than the war for a change.
All good fun with some meaning attached.
***Yanks heads to the replicator to get a piece of the "scotch gum" :) ***
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 12:03pm (USA Central)
By Inferno's Light
. The only time you can cry foul is when the technobabble contradicts itself
Wrong. If Star Trek was set in some other universe, or was a fantasy, that would be okay. But a show cannot be a true science fiction if it is continually breaking the laws of physics. The more a show does that, the sloppier is it. And eventually, you are no longer able to suspend disbelief. This happens to me a lot when watching Trek. It's not a good thing - it's a symptom of poor writing.
- Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 11:38am (USA Central)
In Purgatory's Shadow
Also, many of you here are treating this show like it is real. It's not. Bashir was not a Changeling in the episodes previous, because the writers were very lazy and didn't create an arc. They just made it all up in this episode.
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