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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 4:21pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

@Yanks

"OmicronThetaDeltaPhi, the point is that marketing now-a-days isn't just "US". You are comparing apple and oranges. Movies are opening overseas, etc."

Do you think the old trek films were less "international friendly"? I don't. Actually, the overseas percentage was pretty much constant (around 35%) from Star Generations to ST2009 ("Into Darkness" was a fluke at 51%, and "Beyond" looks like it will be around 35% again).

But I've just realized that there's another problem with my table: Ignoring the overseas income is skewing the data in favor of low budget films. A better comparison would be to add a fixed 35% to all the domestic incomes before "Generations".

If we do that, then the two NuTrek films indeed come on top, but not by much:

Into Darkness: $285M
Voyage Home: $268M
Star Trek 2009: $267M
The Motion Picture: $233M
Wrath of Khan: $231M
Search for Spock: $194M
Undiscovered Country: $118M (actual) / $125M (assuming 35% foreign market)
First Contact: $80M
Final Frontier: $69M
Generations: $66M
Insurrection: $60M
Nemesis: $30M

So it would be fair to say that - financially speaking - the reboot returned Trek to the glorious days of the 1980's. But Star Trek was never a huge box office success, even in those "glorious days". It was always something of a niche product. What classic "Star Trek" lacked in box office $$$, it more than made up for in character (which certainly can't be said for the modern films).

The modern films make about the same amount of money, but they lack the character. Even "Beyond", which is the trekkiest of the 3, is marred by an amount of silliness which hasn't been seen since "The Final Frontier".

And I still maintain that they could have reached the exact same $$$ bottom line without dumbing down the franchise.
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William B
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 4:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Balance of Terror

Well certainly WYLB is *beloved*. This is undeniable. "Most beloved" has a certain something else. I think it lacks the near-universality acclaim among fans that, say, AGT has. OTOH, if we consider "most beloved" by how intensely it is loved and by how many, WYLB would certainly qualify, even if (using this site as guide) it has a higher proportion of detractors than AGT or Balance of Terror or something like In the Pale Moonlight (which of course has detractors too, just at a lower rate).
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Andrew
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 3:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Non Sequitur

The dystopian elements to Earth society were definitely present and intriguing and yet they were so far away from what had previously been implied they, as with the lack of real chemistry or closeness between Kim and Libby, seemed overdone and contrived and not connected enough to why Harry wanted to or felt he had to return to Voyager (especially given how much he and the rest of the crew otherwise want so much to return home).
Kim and Paris do have chemistry but Harry feeling he has to return just feels too underdeveloped and forced rather than sincere.
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Peter G.
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 3:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Balance of Terror

You can count me in amongst those who find WYLB to be "perfect" as Robert said. In that light, I'm happy for it to be categorized as "beloved" :)

(I think it and "All Good Things..." are equal to each other in quality)
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Robert
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Balance of Terror

Enough of the fan base considers DS9's finale to be as good as All Good Things as far as I can tell. For me, even though I'm a Niner, I'll admit to liking AGT more, but WYLB is really perfect to me.

I love Vic's song, I love Odo/Kira's ending, I love Jake staring out the wormhole, I love Bashir/O'Brien, I love Garak/Bashir, I love Damar's end...

I really get why some people don't like the end to the war. It's a bit rushed, but ok for me. In the end the conversation basically amounted to "Your people will go extinct if you don't end this." And I could see almost anyone agreeing to that.

Dukat is the weak point for me, and I usually am a fan of the Prophets and such. I even loved Kai Winn's arc. Although it's not AGT fault, I think DS9 ends better than any other Trek except TOS. TNG ends with Nemesis, ENT with the Pegasus retcon, VOY with Endgame and TOS with "second star on the right and all til morning". 2nd place isn't so bad.
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Chrome
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Balance of Terror

@William B

Well, I was looking more at the Jammer scale (since people on this site tend to agree with Jammer) and he gave it a nice 3.5 stars.

If had to pick a runner up, I'd go with DS9's "The Children of Time" from recent memory. It's a cool sci-fi time concept, but I think the crew is way too easily convinced to side with the temporal civilization. A lot of commenters go on about the "6000 lives" figure which justify them staying, but all of those lives are there *by mistake* to begin with, and there's no way to calculate how many more thousands of lives were lost by the DS9 crew not returning. It's a safe bet that in fair conditions with access to the Federation that crew will naturally live on to create 10 to 100s of thousands of people through their families over a couple centuries.

So even using Spock "needs of the many" logic, the crew was doing the right thing by trying to get off the planet.
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Andrew
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: Conundrum

I don't at all feel the ending tried to shame Riker or portray him as scum either for having casual sex or being disloyal to Troi; instead Ro acknowledges she enjoyed the relationship, despite being surprised by it, but feels it can't continue now and Troi, while not pleased with his behavior, at least the casualness of it, considers it acceptable.
I especially liked the ending on a rewatch because I had misremembered it, I thought it ended like "The Naked Now" with a character declaring "It never happened!," that would be the more expected conclusion and the reactions we instead got were a lot of fun.
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E2
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 12:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Very happy to see Jammer review this film!

As always, he makes some good points.

(I think I much more strongly agree with Mathew, above, however.)

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William B
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 12:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Balance of Terror

I wonder whether What You Leave Behind counts as a "most beloved" episode -- not to dispute you, Chrome, because certainly a lot of people love it. But it does seem to me to be pretty controversial, and, indeed, maybe even viewed more negatively in the current thread than positively. I can kind of see both takes on it -- while I was in the middle of DS9, I was pretty convinced I would dislike the finale from what I remembered, but it ended up working okay for me, though not great.
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Chrome
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 11:44am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Balance of Terror

I actually like TNG's "Genesis" despite the science being awfully flawed. It's still a good hour-long horror show, and at least there's fun Sci-Fi "what-if" type concepts with various animal-human combinations floating around.

As for dislikes of loved episodes? DS9's finale is probably near the top of that list. Hugely disappointing on so many fronts. It's actually not a bad episode per se, it's just that it falls short of potential so many times that I wish they'd just scrapped it and rewrote the ending. Like, the war ends in a 20 second conversation the audience CAN'T hear. Sisko did not deserve to die, or is he in purgatory? Who knows? Oh, and finally, why was Bajor's Federation question never brought up?
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William B
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 11:29am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Balance of Terror

Most hated episode I love: I've talked before about how I am very attached to parts of Descent, though I'm aware of its serious flaws. There are some other eps I feel could have been fixed with a few small rewrites.

Most loved episode I hate: uh. Yeah, I don't think I hate any beloved episodes, but some leave me somewhat cold. I'll have to think what the best example probably is. Homefront didn't do that much for me this rewatch (Paradise Lost flowed much better for me).
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Chrome
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 11:13am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S3: The Most Toys

@Rob E. and Peter G.

Though I'd have to watch this again to see if I could make the connection, I was just going to say this is how Rubinek acts.

Look no further than "Fraiser" (Another Paramount production), where he plays the recurring character of Donnie Douglas. He's doing the same 'I'm obnoxiously bossy and quirky in a fun way' type of character.
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Chrome
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 10:52am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Balance of Terror

Let's not overhype Threshold's award here. It was for make-up, not storytelling. No one is complaining about the makeup. :)
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Robert
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 10:36am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Balance of Terror

@Yanks - Bold choices! I still hate Threshold, but I'm sorry I do because RDM does amazing character work.
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Peter G.
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 10:22am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S3: The Most Toys

@ Rob E.

"Saul Rubinek is channelling William Shatner in his performance."

Watch Rubinek do other work; he's the same there. He seems to do the same 'character' in whatever he's in. So if he's channelling Shatner it's a career choice rather than an homage :)
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Yanks
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 10:14am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Balance of Terror

Robert:

"Everyone has an episode that they are in complete opposite opinion of the vast majority."

Worst: VOY: 'Threshold'. Universally hated, despised, spat upon.... I graded it a 2.5 on Jammer's scale. Only the ending was bad, that episode actually got an award! :-)

Best: I haven't reviewed everything yet, but DS9: 'Rapture' comes to mind. for Jammer this is a 4-star episode. for me, 1 star. (and I was nice)
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Yanks
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 10:08am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

Nolan, you are absolutely correct!! That actually make Kirk's "performance" even better!! (IMO)

Latex Zebra, HAHAHA!! good one!!
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Rob E.
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 10:04am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S3: The Most Toys

Just half-watched/half-listened to THE MOST TOYS on TV after 25 years.

Listen to Saul Rubinek - his phrasing, his inflections of speech. Watch his gestures.

It's Shatner.

Saul Rubinek is channelling William Shatner in his performance.

Interesting......
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Yanks
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 9:50am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Oh duh.... :-) Thanks Jammer.

OmicronThetaDeltaPhi, the point is that marketing now-a-days isn't just "US". You are comparing apple and oranges. Movies are opening overseas, etc.
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Robert
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 9:36am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Balance of Terror

I could do a beloved episode I find middling. I don' t think I hate any beloved episodes.

I find some of the fanatical love for Frame of Mind to be baffling. The direction/atmosphere/music/acting are all amazing, but I think the episode fails to be more than the sum of it's parts. It's a really well presented, but ultimately unsatisfying dish.
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KuberShark
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 9:00am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: Spock's Brain

Agreed w/ Tornado. So bad on so many levels... and yet like John Pate I remember watching this episode as a kid (freaked me out Spock talking McCoy through his own surgery!) so I wanted to revisit it. Random analogy: as a sports super-star occasionally has mediocre games and slumps - so does a great franchise like ST, at times, falter.
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Jammer
Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 8:39am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Yanks, the link to the original STID comment thread is in my first comment at the top of this thread.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 10:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

"Where are you getting your numbers? The don't match BoxOfficeMojo.

www.boxofficemojo.com/franchises/chart/?id=startrek.htm

Are you forgetting all the $$$ made overseas?"

I didn't "forget" them. I've ignored them (as did Matthew, by the way) since the international market is a relatively new thing. Any attempt to compare the overseas performance of a 1980's film to a 2010's film would be meaningless (and BoxOfficeMojo doesn't give the relevant data points for the first five films anyway).
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apk
Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 5:38pm (UTC -5)
Re: Independence Day: Resurgence

I didn't think this movie was even good enough to be bad. It was just boring. Which is even *worse*. It wasn't fun at all, and Other Hemsworth and the other newbies had no charisma to speak of. Goldblum was on auto-pilot (and he didn't have much to do, anyway), and Spiner's character just didn't work.

When Bill Pullman is the best actor in your movie, your movie has problems.
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Anoymius
Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 3:34pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S4: Kir'Shara

"Overall I enjoyed this three parter. It certainly helped the Vulcans regain their original stature from TOS. "

Oh really? They original stature from TOS? You mean like the less than diplomatic Sarek or the female betrothed to Spock who forced him and Kirk to fight to the death?
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