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langtonian - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 11:37am (USA Central)
Re: TNG S7: The Pegasus

I've always thought I would have liked to see a bit more of the back story to this episode. The Federation must surely have been in a very weak position to agree to such an unbalanced treaty: the Romulans having cloaks, without the Federation having the same, puts the Federation at a HUGE disadvantage. So what happened? We never really hear about it.

I've also always thought that it was a bit unrealistic how shocked Picard was at the disclosure. I mean, he might not have approved, but it seems pretty naïve not to assume that the Federation would be secretly continuing cloaking research, at least to some extent.
Yanks - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 11:18am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

@ Robert.


We never got this or any indication of this from the Jem'Hadar "child".

"PICARD: You will assist us to assimilate this vessel. You are Borg. You will assist us.
BORG: I will not.
PICARD: What did you say?
BORG: I will not assist you.
BORG: Geordi must not be assimilated.
PICARD: But you are Borg.
BORG: No. I am Hugh."

It's easy to make these episode comparisons (folks do it incorrectly with 'Children of Time’ and ‘E2’ all the time (pun intended :-)), but this episode is really in no way like 'I Borg'.

The fact is, had Hugh not said "I", his Borg butt was getting injected and going on to unknowingly perform genocide.

Sisko was not ever going to do something like that, he was simply ordered by Star Fleet to provide a sample for observation and testing to help prepare for the inevitable. Hell, Star Fleet would never have killed the Jem'Hadar unless he got out and was killing other folks...

We saw nothing from this Jem'Hadar that would indicate anything other than what he was "programmed" for. A vicious killing machine that was designed (programmed) to kill anyone but the Founders. Hell, the only reason they don’t kill the Vorta is they provide the white.

It wasn't for lack of trying, Odo gave the effort, but to no avail.
Markus - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 11:15am (USA Central)
Re: TOS S2: The Apple

Why the hell did they not take down a shuttle to rescue the away team? It is again so obvious.
Yanks - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 10:40am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S4: For the Cause

Maybe Sisko was so pissed at Eddington because he was starting to feel like Chakotay on voyager.

"CHAKOTAY: You were working for her. Seska was working for them. Was anyone on board that ship working for me?"

Yanks - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 10:36am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S4: For the Cause

Just watched this episode last night.

I'll have to stray from Jammer's opinion on this one.

I thought this was an OUTSTANDING episode.

The best part about it WAS we didn't see it coming. Damn, does everything have to be thrown in your face?

I too prefer Cyia Batten. So damn sexy and her face is so expressive. I don't hate the replacement (Tracy Middendorf), she was fine (although I think I could look like a good actor alongside of Andrew Robinson :-)), but I don't know why the change had to be made. I kind of felt the same way I did with Ezri here. (Then they did it AGAIN! grrr....)

This episode has so much going on. Let's start with the "B" story. I really felt that Garak was afraid Ziyal was going to kill him! :-) I also loved how Quark put that back in his head in the tailor shop (lol). I also love the little exchange in the turbo-lift.

"GARAK: You're not going to hurt me, are you? Normally I would simply make a strategic withdrawal at the first sign of trouble, but there doesn't seem to be a way out of here.
ZIYAL: You could always call security.
GARAK: Oh, true. But it would take them a few minutes to arrive, and by then it might be too late.
ZIYAL: I don't think I'll hurt you.
GARAK: I'm gratified to hear that.
ZIYAL: In fact I think it's safe to say you have nothing to fear from me.
(They arrive at the Promenade.)
GARAK: And you, my dear, have nothing to fear from me."

:-) That scene was just perfect.

As was the last scene in the holosuite.

"GARAK: Why am I here? Am I to believe that you've invited the sworn enemy of your father simply to enjoy the heat?
ZIYAL: You really think I asked you here to kill you? Well, it did occur to me. Kira and my father both told me that you used to be an agent of the Obsidian Order. That you had my grandfather tortured and killed, and that you could easily kill me without a second thought.
GARAK: Although I seldom credit the Major or your father with being entirely trustworthy, in this case they're both telling the truth."

That's so Garak... he just doesn't ever have a bad scene.

OK, on with the main story...

MAJOR screw up for Sisko here, perfectly set up by Eddington. (hook, line and sinker)

"EDDINGTON: Sir, if the Maquis put up a fight the Xhosa might get caught in the crossfire. If that happens, I can't guarantee the safety of Kasidy Yates. And to be blunt, I don't want that responsibility.
SISKO: I can't say I blame you. The security of the CFI replicators is your priority. I'll take command of the Defiant.
EDDINGTON: Thank you, Captain."

Eddington set the stage and Sisko became a willing actor in his play. He probably recruited Yates months ago once he knew she was snuggling up with the Captain.

Brilliant!! (as Odo concedes). The question is, why not let Worf command the Defiant? Oh, he didn't show very good tactical judgment before I guess :-) Don’t want that freighter to get schwacked :-)

Thank you to all above that KNOW what the REAL Maquis’ dilemma is. Damn, if you're going to complain about something at least know WTF you’re complaining about.

They AREN'T Federation Citizens!

Not siding with the almighty Federation here either. This "treaty" is and has been a steaming pile bull from the start.

The Kassidy Yates angle is an interesting one. She so sided with the Maquis that she helped them KNOWING that her boyfriend Star Fleet Captain would have a duty to perform someday. Wow. Wonder if she had family down there? Did she really think she was good enough not to get caught, ever? Does she really care about Sisko?

I will also agree that Eddington had one of the best rants ever heard on Star Trek. His blurb on the "Federation" was SPOT ON!. Right up there with Quark's "root beer" line to Garak in 'Way of the Warrior' :-)

I'm not sure I completely agree with Sisko and his response to Eddington though. He did a whole bunch of pleading and talking with his old bud Hudson, but Hudson didn't embarrass him by stealing 12 Class-4 replicators, eh? Hudson didn't lure him off the station, eh? Nope, Eddington is going to jail if it's the last thing Sisko does. No discussion necessary. No uniform left for him to come back before Sisko has to inform Star Fleet. Lesson learned, don’t embarrass the Sisko.

Couple more notes. Ken Marshall is outstanding as Eddington and as I watched this episode I still was thinking how much I wished Felecia M. Bell could have played Kassidy Yates. What a beauty.

This episode has Ron Moore written all over it.

3.5 star for me. Outstanding episode on many levels!
Robert - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 9:40am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

"So I'm not sure I see any ability to limit that built in urge aside from the military obedience that's programmed in."

If they can make even a single decision against their programming, I'd still say that implies sentience. Star Trek has supported this in the past with AIs, I don't know why it'd be different with biologically programmed things.

"EMH: While I was aboard that ship I poisoned a man.
SEVEN: Deliberately?
EMH: Yes. I was trying to force him to let me treat patients who were dying.
SEVEN: You were prepared to sacrifice an individual to benefit a collective.
EMH: No offence, Seven, but I don't exactly aspire to Borg ideals.
SEVEN: You were hoping your behaviour was the result of a malfunction. I'm sorry Doctor, but I must give you a clean bill of health. "

There was also the scene where Data was shooting Fajo and then lied to Riker about it. Both things truly hint that when an AI can override key aspects of their own program like that, that they are truly sentient.
Robert - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 9:31am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

This was clearly meant to be DS9's "I, Borg". Is it right to use a sentient being as a weapon to destroy their people against their will? In Hugh's episode the individual was a little more of an individual, the race a little less and the weapon was a little more high stakes (obviously Starfleet wants to develop tactics against the Jem'Hadar using this guy, but the TNG crew were talking about wiping out the Borg entirely... though I am skeptical that it would have worked, it seemed too powerful). But it's still largely the same episode. In both cases the Captain made the same choice (although Sisko's hands ended up a bit more tied) and in both cases Starfleet disagreed. I don't know that I personally have an opinion as to what I'd do in their shoes, but it's still an interesting episode, no matter which show it's on.
Yanks - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 9:10am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

@ Robert.

Agree, but at this time in the series all we know that the Jem'Hadar are genetically bread to kill, and willfully "comply" if you will. Here, we get to see one from "birth" and those urges can't even be controlled by a Founder (Odo). He was obedient, but the "fire" just kept burning hotter and hotter. We learn more as the series progresses, but we also learn that "victory is life" is their motto.

I can think of 2 episodes where we see "dissention". One where the #1 doesn't require the white and led his troops to strive for the same. This doesn't happen if the #1 requires it. The other is where a band of Jem'Hadar break free to search for and acquire Iconian technology, and it wasn't to ensure peace throughout the galaxy either. I think the inability to control the urge to kill would put them in a classification like an animal. A dog is obedient, but we don’t treat them like a sentient human being.

So I'm not sure I see any ability to limit that built in urge aside from the military obedience that's programmed in.

Remember, in "The Search PII" the head Founder states that the Alpha Quadrant could use some order. That can mean only one thing from a Founder.

I still say Sisko was wrong here and Star Fleet was right in this case.
Robert - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 9:00am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S1: Captive Pursuit

"When Kirk, Picard or Janeway violated the letter of the law, they OWNED it. They decided to face the music and live with their choices because they thought they were right. Sisko plays this little game where he pretends to try and stop O'Brien so he can falsify his report to Starfleet. What a coward. And talk about a reset button!"

Regardless of if you agree with it or not, one of the themes of DS9 was that they were on the Frontier. It was dirtier, messier and Starfleet wouldn't always understand what was going on there. The whole "saint in paradise" bit.

Sisko isn't being a coward. What was the alternative? Have the report say "Well we had a security breach but I decided to ignore it?"

On TNG Worf and Riker assaulted J'naii guards and all they get from Picard is

"PICARD: I didn't know when to tell them we will be there. Is our business with the J'naii finished?
RIKER: Finished, sir."

And this is after giving Worf a reprimand for murdering one of the Chancellor candidates in Reunion. Yet they remain the first officer and security chief. I actually liked Sisko in this episode, I thought that telling Odo to take his time was something was a nice touch. It wasn't Sisko condoning O'Brien's actions.... but if O'Brien had already disobeyed orders and was heading for a reprimand anyway... might as well let him finish the job.
Robert - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 8:35am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S3: The Search, Part II

"I think some fans didn't like it because other shows and movies have done something similar where nothing was real and they felt cheated"

I think the difference here is that while the simulation wasn't real and a whole heck of a lot of things got reset buttoned, a whole heck of a lot DID happen and there are plenty of un-reset consequences to deal with.

Season 2 ended with a Vorta spy trying to get into the Alpha Quadrant and this :

"TALAK'TALAN: Coming through the anomaly is interference enough. Unless you wish to continue to offend the Dominion, I suggest you stay on your side of the galaxy. "

Ok, so that's a giant middle finger to the Federation's exploration, but it's not quite like what we find out in the Search, Part II :

"FEMALE: Then perhaps one day I'll come visit you. The Alpha Quadrant seems wracked with chaos. It could use some order. "

That ups the stakes tremendously. Not to mention the whole thing about the Founders being Odo's people. The only thing I am sad about is that we lost the Romulan. I understand that "watching the cloaking device" is a stupid job... but this was "pre-Worf". They could have just made her the Defiant's tactical officer. I get that she was a Romulan, but they could have explained it away. And then we would have gotten to keep the talented Martha Hackett.
Robert - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 8:28am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

"Also, how "sentient" was he really? Genetically bread to fight? He admittedly had one purpose and one purpose only... to fight... interesting question. "

To throw my 2 cents in, this is how I view the Jem'Hadar's sentience.

They have base instincts (to revere a Founder, bloodlust, etc.) and we have base instincts (sex, violence, fear). I'm sure everyone has felt a tug of their instincts at one point. Sure, we CAN control/rise above our base instincts. But so can the Jem'Hadar. We've seen some of them rebel, look for a cure for the white, etc.

If instincts are typically a little voice in your head telling you to punch out the guy that just bumped into you (there was a Voyager episode about that!) or to run away from something that goes bump in the night... occasionally that little voice gets loud. I feel like whatever the Founders did to the Jem'Hadar the little voice is more like a SCREAM.

We've seen too many episodes of Jem'Hadar (albeit later in the series than this one) exhibiting a level of free thought that I have to believe their programming are just really, really powerful instincts coupled with drugs. If I dialed your instincts up to 100 and put you on drugs you'd find it very hard not to act like a caveman. The Jem'Hadar are definitely sentient, they've just been genetically abused beyond all recognition that sometimes it's easier to think of them as machines.
Yanks - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 8:19am (USA Central)
Re: ENT S1: Fortunate Son

I liked this episode.

...and I don't think Archer or T'Pol were wrong.

There is nothing logical by dealing with this problem by taking a hostage. Especially when 99.9% of the time you are alone and most likely out gunned. Is it a perfect world? No, but throwing gas on the fire when you don't have a bucket of water is dangerous and borderline stupid. Letting the Nausicaans know that Star Fleet was “out here” was the right approach.

No problem with the Archer/Travis conversation in his cabin. Archer's point was valid, but I think he should have brought up future consequences to being the aggressor. Next time it might not be just the cargo they are looking for.

I didn't like this line though:

"ARCHER: Any other orders of mine you'd like to question?"

Pretty snotty there.

I think this episode brings out that not everyone is fit for command as well.

Good "Travis episode". I wish the series had more of these.

No question they should have taken some upgrades, I think the Fortunate Captain should have taken some when he was back on his feet.

I thought it was more of a jealousy/envy thing rather than "we are short people" whine. Ryan always talked about "who will be left" etc, but I thought there was something else in his conversations. "boomer life wasn't good enough"... etc.

I too enjoyed the conversations between Captains at the end.

Archer should have taken a shot of Drilaxian Whisky. Captains are on call 24/7. The "I'm on duty" cop out would get old. He's not asking him to get plastered.

3 stars for me.
Yanks - Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 6:31am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

Good point Tgor.

I don't think the reason Star Fleet wanted him was "for science". They saw the Dominion as a future threat, and the Jem'Hadar were the ruthless enforcers. They wanted intel. They wanted to develop an answer for them when/if they come-a-knocking.

Also, how "sentient" was he really? Genetically bread to fight? He admittedly had one purpose and one purpose only... to fight... interesting question.
Phillip - Mon, Jul 28, 2014, 11:49pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S3: The Search, Part II

The main problem I have with the simulation is that Garak wasn't real because he really put in a good performance in this ep. Except for his last words being about not being able to have lunch with Bashir. Kinda cheesy.

I don't have any problem with the simulation because we learn later that the founders are very meticulous and slow in conquering the galaxy. They send spys into the the alpha quadrant for extended periods of time to gather info. They steal peoples identitys in starfleet and the klingon empire repeatedly. I think some fans didn't like it because other shows and movies have done something similar where nothing was real and they felt cheated but this is what the founders do. And it worked. They gathered a lot of info about the people who stand at the gateway they will need to travel through to force their order in the whole of the Milky Way
Tgor - Mon, Jul 28, 2014, 11:24pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

Yanks, I think it was right for Sisko to not send him to Star Fleet. He's a sentient person who has comitted no crime. Sisko can't morally send him against his will, especially when he would harm others to escape. That's kidnapping. Plus, the Federation at this time isn't in an official war. It is hard to justify kidnapping a person just for science.
NCC-1701-Z - Mon, Jul 28, 2014, 9:30pm (USA Central)
Re: ENT S1: Fortunate Son

@mark: I completely agree with you as to what Archer should have done. The episode itself as a whole was all right to me, but the ending left a bad taste in my mouth. After the end credits, I said, "That's gonna come back to bite them later."

One could look at this in terms of 'Archer and humanity are inexperienced, they're slowly learning their way around the cosmos' but really though, it should just be common sense to anyone with an IQ above 50. After all, it's Starfleet's job to protect ships like the Fortunate. Shooting back at the Nausicaans would get that message across real fast. To quote a commander figure from another sci-fi franchise, "If you keep running from a schoolyard bully, he keeps on chasing you. But the moment you turn around and stop and you punch him really hard in a sensitive spot, he'll think twice about coming back again."

I think Archer learned this lesson by season 3, though (see "Anomaly") - too bad it took that long.
LongKahn - Mon, Jul 28, 2014, 9:20pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S2: The Jem'Hadar

I wonder why no other vorta used that energy bolt from the chest. That was kinda cool. I guess most vorta we meet have a group of jem'Hadar soldiers to protect them but I can think of a few instances where they could have used that.
rick - Mon, Jul 28, 2014, 8:44pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S4: Qpid

This episode was alone worth it for seeing data in friar tucks hairdoo...and watching troi shoot him with an arrow. Priceless.
Elliott - Mon, Jul 28, 2014, 7:41pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S1: Q-Less


I'm doing little reviews of each episode (a bit of fun I started a couple years ago). I started at the beginning of this season and am giving each episode the same treatment. I will hopefully do the same for the other series. You'll note that good episodes (and good moments) will get positive reviews from me.
Sean - Mon, Jul 28, 2014, 6:20pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S1: Q-Less

Elliot, always with the ask to grind against DS9. You're over-analyzing a dull episode from season 1 that no one cares about. You do realize this don't you? Not even fans of the show care about it as much as you do. You're obsessed with DS9.
TDV - Mon, Jul 28, 2014, 1:33pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S3: Menage a Troi

Don't forget this is the episode that spawned the endless annoyed Picard memes/gifs on facebook.
Yanks - Mon, Jul 28, 2014, 12:28pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Inner Light


What an interesting, emotional and historic Star Trek episode.

Couple times during this one I get all choked up, it doesn't matter how many times I've seen this episode.

"PICARD: I'd like to ask your permission to build something.
ELINE: Kamin, you've built your telescope, your laboratory. You don't need my permission for something new.
PICARD: In this case, I think I do.
ELINE: What is it?
PICARD: A nursery.
ELINE: Really? Really?
PICARD: Unless, of course, if you would prefer a porch. It would certainly be easier to build. I could make a start on it right away.

"RIKER: We were able to open the probe and examine it. Apparently, whatever had locked onto you must have been self terminating. It's not functioning any longer. We found this inside.
(Riker hands him a box and leaves. Inside it is a penny whistle with a tassel. Picard clutches it to his chest for a moment, then plays his Skye Boat song variation on it)"

(snif, snif)

But this episode, while playing with our emotions, does it in such a way that should make us cringe.

Involuntary mind rape is fully accepted in the Star Trek universe. Picard was RAPED!! ...and for what? So some race that couldn't figure out how to get off their rock could be remembered?

It all seems very selfish to me.

#1. The Kataanian’s as race believe that force-feeding this program "down someone's mind" is acceptable? Really, the risk never occurred to them? Hoe selfish is this probe?

#2. We TREK fans love this episode and it doesn't seem to matter that Picard was almost killed, because we liked the story. Selfish once again.

213karaokejoe - Mon, Jul 28, 2014, 11:45am (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Inner Light

Love this episode even though I avoid it when I see it on our list of recordings. Always makes me cry; probably tied for water works with the episode where Data creates his daughter.

"Remember, put your shoes away"
"I promise"

"Now we live in you; tell them of us, my darling"
Robert - Mon, Jul 28, 2014, 9:39am (USA Central)
Re: VOY S7: Critical Care

The kid is a promising medical talent not so that his worth is increased in OUR eyes (the fact that he's a person should be enough to do that), but so that he bonds with the Doctor.

They put them in a quasi mentor relationship so that in the end the Doctor is willing to murder the one he sees responsible. That part of the episode has nothing to do with the healthcare metaphor, it's all done to bring the Doc to a darker place.

And I thought it really paid off. It's probably the part of the episode that works the best.
Sonya - Sun, Jul 27, 2014, 11:19pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

Here is a link to a helpful site re: definitions of gender identity, sexual orientation, etc.

http: //www.hrc.org/resources/entry/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-terminology-and-definitions (omit the space between the colon and the first two backslashes)

In the past (including recently), I've used the term sexual identity, but I think gender identity is closer to the intended meaning. Using these definitions, I think gender expression is a choice, but not gender identity or sexual orientation. (Also note that sexual orientation is different from sexual behavior... just because someone has sex with a person of a specific biological sex, it doesn't mean he or she necessary gravitates towards that sex in terms of attraction.)

Again, part of what makes this episode a good one is that it prompts these types of questions, and hopefully promotes greater acceptance of diversity and empathy for others among viewers.
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