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Peter G.
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 2:37pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S1: Krill

@ Omicron,

"It's like we, today, no longer do human sacrfices. Nor do we torture people and burn them at the stake for being of the wrong religion. How did humanity (or at least: western civilization) come to stop doing those things? Simple: our society has outgrown the need for these practices. They gradually became socially unacceptable and people stopped doing them. It's definitely *not* because we, as individual human beings, are somehow less petty and vengeful than our ancestors. "

You're up s**t's creek without a paddle on this one. If you think the docile contented people of today are anything like how people used to be then I think you're really taking modern life for granted. As a Trek fan I'm surprised that you'd take supposed advances in culture so much in stride and not consider that people have changed. Some of the changes are arguably not entirely for the better, but that's a matter of perspective perhaps. The Trekkian utopia is predicated on the notion that people can and do progress. The idea that technology improves but we stay the same is more likely a dystopia setting than anything else.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 2:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S1: Krill

By the way, am I the only one here who is frustrated by the fact that there's no new episode this week?

Dammit, Fox! I need my fix! ;)
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 2:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S1: Krill

@Konstantinos
"I am not saying this is a bad show on the contrary it is tons of fun. The review is saying it may never become a classic. Putting the bar ridiculously high and then stating that the show doesn't reach it is foul play. "

I'm not sure what's the point you're trying make here.

Basically Jammer is saying "It's good but not great" (he even used various versions of this specific phrase in his review). And basically, that's what you're saying too. So what's the problem? How is Jammer "bashing" the show? His review wasn't negative it all!

Here's a thing to consider:
Everything you said about Jammer's review, I could have said about your own statements on the Orville. I could say: "Why are you saying that the show isn't groundbreaking? Why are you saying that it's just a TNG/VOY clone with some humor thrown in? And then you write things like 'the ideas of space Vampires and hot time travelling women have been worked out to death already let alone the humor segments'. Why are you bashing the show?"

Sounds ridiculous, right? Right. But how is this any different from your own critique of Jammer's review?

@Jason R.
"William what you describe is paradoxical. You can't have people just like us living in a utopian future free of war, prejudice and hate - because then they wouldn't be just like us. Star Trek's ideal is not just about new technology but new people."

Well, obviously, they're not *exactly* like us. They've grown up in a world were people no longer do things like racism and human-vs-human warfare. They've also have the tech to cure diseases like cancer.

Why would cracking dick-jokes be an obstacle to any of this?

It's like we, today, no longer do human sacrfices. Nor do we torture people and burn them at the stake for being of the wrong religion. How did humanity (or at least: western civilization) come to stop doing those things? Simple: our society has outgrown the need for these practices. They gradually became socially unacceptable and people stopped doing them. It's definitely *not* because we, as individual human beings, are somehow less petty and vengeful than our ancestors.

BTW the Orville-verse was never presented as an "utopia". It's just a better world than we have today. I actually find this to be a more believable and honest take than the Trekkian claim of a perfect humanity (which somehow still has place for all those hat-ass admirals that behave exactly like 20th century bereaucracts).
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Maq
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 1:54pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: Encounter at Farpoint

O'Brian is titulated liutenant by Data , ????
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Lod
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 1:32pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

By the way, that ending with the creepy reflection of Stamets in his mirror was scary af, imo. I wonder if that has some connection with the Mirror Universe?
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Lod
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 1:30pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Imo, Saru didn't stop being himself or behaving the way he normally does because of bad writing, but rather because he doesn't want to lose yet another captain after Georgiou and so sees rescuing Lorca his main priority and the well-being of the Tardigrade as less important.
You can understand watching the episode that he's really anxious and nervous about filling the captain position while Lorca is gone, that he wants to do his best and, in his point of view, "doing his best" means accomplishing his goal by following the admiral's orders to the letter, no matter what, those orders being "Rescue Lorca before he spills out our secrets!".
He wants to impress the admiral, to show her he can be a good captain and at the same time he doesn't want to lose another captain. That's why he doesn't behave "like himself".
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Chrome
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:42am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Thanks Peremensoe, for your thoughtful comment. You really nailed the Trek morality topic there, I'm tempted to frame that and put it up on my wall.

I think a great example that illustrates how a immoral character can tell a morality tale is none other than "A Christmas Carol". There, Scrooge is both the antagonist AND the protagonist because he's fighting his own demons in order to understand why he came to be what he is. If Scrooge started the story out as just some normal and decent guy with an attitude you'd expect around Christmas, there would be no conflict, and thus no story. That a selfish character like Scrooge can make such a dramatic change in conscience is exactly what makes the story so involving. So yes, flawed characters can tell very moving moral stories.

@Yanks

I tried watching it, but I ran out of time because of family stuff. I'm not all that invested in the "All-Access" fluff, but I'd be interested to know if anything important comes of it, too.
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William B
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:36am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S3: Third Season Recap

There are some other s2 eps I really like, but yeah, s3 has some real standouts. I wouldn't say I like or even am neutral on Darkling/Rise, but I don't think they're close to the bottom of what s2-3 offer, especially s2. It's remarkable how much of an improvement S4 is; I'm nearly halfway through and I'm really digging it, though it's still inconsistent. Ds9 6/Voy 4 was a good year for Trek.

I hope you do pick up your reviews! I can't wait to read what you say about Profit and Lace.
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BZ
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:36am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

@William,
In "Measure of a Man", Data, who has been treated as a sentient being his entire life, went to Starfleet Academy, and serves as a high ranking officer on Federation's flagship, is deemed Starfleet property and is about to be taken away and disassembled, against his very clear refusal, by a scientist who is in no way portrayed as evil or immoral. It is only Enterprise's crew's attachment to him that gets him his trial, and, as I said before, the final decision is very narrow and allows for future decisions the other way in similar cases.

Ripper, meanwhile, is a newly discovered lifeform who may or may not be sentient. It never articulates its objections to the way it's treated in any way that our characters can understand. We might get the feeling that it's in pain, but it's not confirmed until this episode.

On the other hand, Ripper is not an artificial lifeform created by federation citizens, but is captured. In large part the case against Data revolves around the idea that he's not even alive. There's no doubt that Ripper is alive. The question is really one of enslaving a sentient being (if it's sentient) or torturing a lifeform (if it's deliberately being hurt). Neither of these is unambiguously happening. It's reasonable to make parallels to using domesticated animals for transportation (horses) or heavy labor (oxen). Heck, humans still eat meat in the TOS era, so they kill non-sentient lifeforms routinely.
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Ayrus
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:19am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: Manhunt

A completely pointless episode which is a giant waste of time. I thought we already had an episode where Lwaxana makes Picard uncomfortable. Even the Dixon Hill subplot fell flat. Season 2 was really hitting it's stride until this one and it's predecessor.

The only mystery from this one is what exactly was Picard thinking about Lwaxana?
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Yanks
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Is anyone watching "After Trek" on the CBS All Access after the showing on Sunday night?
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Jason R.
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:05am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S1: Krill

William what you describe is paradoxical. You can't have people just like us living in a utopian future free of war, prejudice and hate - because then they wouldn't be just like us. Star Trek's ideal is not just about new technology but new people.

I am not just talking about the anachronism of guys cracking jokes about 20th century car rentals either.

My point is if you accept that the Orville takes place in some bright Star Trek like future then that vision is fraudulent.
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William
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 9:49am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

@BZ

The points of my direct comparisons to those TNG episodes was meant as a comparison of the characters on the show, and the choices they make. I cannot imagine a command level officer on the Discovery standing up for personal liberty (the Drumhead) or risking military advantage by following protocol (the Wounded).

As far as the "Measure of a Man" comparison, are you really comparing people standing up for the rights of a minority on the verge of oppression through proper legal channels to less than a handful of people violating the chain of command to prevent abuse, if not slavery? One proposes that society has means to overcome current inequities, the other supposes that society is inherently bent on immoral action and must be subverted, as there is no means within the system to correct the system.

The "I, Borg" comparison is similarly contextual. Upon analysis, the crew of the Enterprise were unwilling to convert a sentient into a weapon of mass destruction. The fact that Hugh had a beneficial effect for the Federation later as a result of undermining the "political" structure of the Borg doesn't make that choice irrelevant. That equivocation would be similar to saying that not launching a pre-emptive strike against the USSR is an irrelevant choice, since the impact of Western popular culture eventually contributed to undermining the power of the Communist Party anyway. It would still be the right choice, even if the Borg or the USSR survived contact unscathed.

"What Would Discovery Do?" is meant as a highlight of the amorality this show purports. Maybe the story arc will produce a show that looks better in hindsight, but abandoning the moral fabric of Star Trek in a canonical Trek series demands heightened scrutiny from franchise fans. Justify your choices, Discovery. Michael Burnham, contrived kidnappings, forced cameos, and guild navigators aren't doing that yet.
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William
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 9:05am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S1: Krill

If we are going to dwell on whether or not this show is groundbreaking, I guess it is doomed to be a failure. The underlying premise of being a love-letter to 90's Trek prevents that from being a possibility. It doesn't prevent the show from being important in its time and place.

What was the last sci-fi product that proposed the idea that we will be better people in the future than we are today? When I watch things like Bladerunner, ST:D or the Expanse, I can appreciate the stories they are trying to tell, but I am not presented with a future I would want to achieve. The Orville actually is. These are regular people you might work with or meet in a pub, who happen to be living in a Roddenberry-utopian future. They drink, make dirty jokes, play practical jokes, and have sex, but they are trying to be good people. They stand up for what they believe in, but don't use their own personal beliefs as a litmus test for determining whether or not they treat people with respect. It's refreshing.

This show isn't a revelation, it's a reminder that it's OK to imagine a world that is better than our own. It's kinda retro. I guess optimism is retro now. Maybe if it wasn't, this show would feel cliche and repetitive instead of fresh.
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Del_Duio
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 8:14am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Yeah I agree, if you're going in you've go to go all in. $9.99 vs. $5.99 is nothing in the long run. Skipping annoying commercials every 8 minutes is worth $4 a month to me.
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vofeeto
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 6:27am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

@Peremensoe

Thanks for the tip suggesting paying the $9.99 a month is worth it. With the the $5.99 a month option, I get about 2 minutes' worth of commercials per break (as an aside: this leads me to think the actual episode air time, strangely enough, is closer to 45 minutes or show than ENT's 42 or so. Sigh... The Man Trap has about 53 minutes of actual airtime. We had lost something more than minutes by padding TV episodes with commercials).
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Konstantinos
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 5:36am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S1: Krill

Again, I am not expecting anything. That would be bias against the reviewer. I want to see some logical arguments. The Orville is no more groundbreaking than, I dunno "Dark matter"? It basically takes the same TGN/Voyager recipe and adds some humor in it. The ideas of space Vampires and hot time travelling women have been worked out to death already let alone the humor segments.

I am not saying this is a bad show on the contrary it is tons of fun. The review is saying it may never become a classic.

You are free to nitpick any show same way I am free to nitpick these reviews. Putting the bar ridiculously high and then stating that the show doesn't reach it is foul play.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 5:18am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

@Geekgarious

"I should just cancel my sub, get over Trek and Star Wars, and just watch The Expanse or The Leftovers. There hasn't been any truly great Trek on screen in many years now...why do I keep holding out for something good?"

Have you tried "the Orville"?

It's not everybody's cup of tea, but it *is* surprisingly good. And it scratches that irksome Trek itch like nothing else that was produced the past 12 years.

Worth a look... and it's free :-)
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Sooty
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 5:15am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

Really starting to enjoy this series its just warming up nicely. The characters are growing nicely and the arc is hotting up. The F-Bomb just took me right out of the episode for a moment and was completely unnecessary.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 5:09am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S1: Krill

He gave it 3 stars. What more do you want?

And may I remind you that Jammer is a *reviewer* and that listing what works and what doesn't work in the episodes he is watching is his f***-ing job? Really, what do you expect from a review site? Two lines saying "that was fun" (or "that was terrible")?

As for "it's not supposed to be a great series that will change sci-fi history forever or something."... too bad, because I think the Orville is close to being that. It may not be great in the way that classic Trek was great, but it *is* groundbreaking in other ways. Don't let the McFarlane name (or his humor) fool you. He created a real gem here (and I'm saying this as a guy who hates all his other works with passion).



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Konstantinos
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 3:13am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S1: Krill

So the reviewer sucker punches Orville for not being the great series that will change sci-fi history forever or something.

Like sheesh, it is not supposed to be a great series. It is just a funny McFarlane vehicle aiming at goofiness and its purpose is to entertain the audience for an hour. And that is completely acceptable. If you are looking for the next rare gem that will change your life, please look somewhere else. Or stick around and be utterly disappointed.
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Hunter
Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 2:49am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Legacy

@digitaurus - I've noticed that quite often among the female guest stars. I've been rewatching the series and I'm seeing a lot of nipples in the early seasons. My guess would be Gene had something to do with that... or maybe the network wanted to spice things up to keep viewing figures high?

Ishara reminds me of Billie Piper. Or rather, the other way around.. It's those lips and cheekbones.
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Skamper
Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 11:51pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Basics, Part I

Here's my scores from highest to lowest.

Projections - 4
Tuvix - 3.5
Meld - 3
Coldfire - 2.5
Resistance - 2.5
Initiations - 2
Persistance of Vision - 2
Prototype - 2
Alliances - 2
Deathwish - 2
Lifesigns - 2
Deadlock - 2
Basics Pt. 1 - 2
The 37's - 1.5
Twisted - 1.5
Maneuvers - 1.5
Dreadnaught - 1.5
Resolutions - 1.5
Tattoo - 1
Investigations - 1
Innocence - 1
Non Sequitur - .5
Parturition - .5
Elogium - 0
Threshold - 0
The Thaw - 0

Average rating - 1.65

For me this season was all over the place, but mostly bad. Tuvix, Meld, and Projections were the only 3 episodes I truly liked.

It beats out season 1 which I had as an average of 1.53, mostly due to those 3 episodes. Though I only had one show last season with a zero score, Cathexis, and this season I had 3 zeros.
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Peremensoe
Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 9:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

"@Peremensoe -- stating that escapism is the opposite of moral courage may be true, but how is that relevant in the least to Discovery? These cats are some of the most morally bankrupt, amoral people we've seen in positions of authority in Starfleet. Again, these folks behave like the jerks that are messing up the 21st century. Who wants that? "

Look. The themes of a narrative work, including a film or show, are not just in the explicit words and deeds of the central characters. Stories can have flawed, even reprehensible protagonists, and still carry righteous messages. Despite what you may have heard about "Roddenberry rules," Star Trek has always depicted some members of Starfleet and the Federation as being morally problematic people, to say the least. The "insane" (or evil) admiral is a Trek trope, for godsake. We've literally seen traitors and murderers in positions of authority in Starfleet, not to mention all manner of prejudice, vanity, and pettiness. It's not just a matter of individual miscreants, either; Discovery's Mudd isn't the first the see the "arrogance" of Starfleet and the Federation as institutions.

None of this detracted from the moral themes; often these aspects were the fulcrums of the narrative. Stories about people struggling to discover and uphold principles in difficult circumstances, to become better, are generally a lot more compelling than people just *being* perfect, in perfect organizations.

Besides all that, I think you're just wrong about the Discovery characters. Lorca may be an impenetrable thicket as yet, and Burnham is a troubled soul, but even so I think most of the named crew we've seen are people who want to do the right thing, as best they can discern it and are able.
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Brian1
Tue, Oct 17, 2017, 8:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Choose Your Pain

This is the Brian who has been commenting on various threads recently. I just wanted to make sure that people did not think I was the one making the homophobic remarks made above by this new Brian. So that there is no confusion in the future I'm going to start referring to myself as "Brian1". And yeah, what others said, get over your homophobia.
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