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dlpb - Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 3:16am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S6: In the Pale Moonlight

, a conflict in which the West were complicit in the creation of fascism
-----------

Ah, here we go. More apologist nonsense. You can't go through life blaming every evil that comes along on the big bad West. I will agree that punishing Germany too long and in a silly way resulted in people of Germany uprising and voting Hitler... but that's the shallow way of looking at it. Hitler really did sort out the problems caused to the everyday people, while the governing parties of Germany ignored their electorate. THAT is the reason he came to power - along with the West (like Chamberlain) ignoring his threat and believing flowers would help.

Mark - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 10:58pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S5: Let He Who Is Without Sin...

I have a friend who loved everything American football. Loved the Dallas Cowboys all the way back from when he was a child and Emmitt Smith was playing running back for them. He wasn't from Dallas or anywhere from Texas for that matter, but the Cowboys were the team he loved from day one of watching football. He also really loathed soccer. Couldn't stand the sport. He saw no redeeming qualities about it, and said the same things that have been said here about it and other things that I've heard about it from other Americans countless times. When asked if he had ever been to a game he said no and he wanted to keep it that way.

Well me and some other friends of mine decided we were going to take a trip to Germany and tour a little bit of both Berlin and Munich. We asked him if he wanted to come along and he was very excited about the whole thing. When we got there we managed to get tickets for the Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund game. He wasn't so thrilled about it but he decided despite all his "hate" for the game he would go for the experience to see what all the fuss was about. It was a great game and he was completely enthralled throughout most of it. He came out of it very surprised at how exciting the game was, and how different it was than what he had expected to be. After that he decided to casually start following Bayern Munich from then on. Eventually after a short time that casual following became more than that and it has gotten to the point that he now is a huge support of Bayern Munich and catches every game. Does he still watch football? Sure, but it doesn't seem to hold his interest like it used to. He still follows the Cowboys, but is actually now a bigger fan of Munich.

Now I know that not all Americans would be like him and decide that after one game to decide that it was indeed a great sport. Some people would still hate it. There are people who know all about American football and still hate that. There are also people in Europe and South America who can't stand soccer either. However I do think that if more people were exposed to high level soccer on a consistent basis, a lot more people in this country would start following a team and start getting into it a lot more. Part of the problem is with a lot of Americans is that they think the soccer being played in their youth comes close to the real thing. In this country IT DOES NOT. For the most part not anywhere close. You said that they should call it the sport of "running around a massive field and never scoring." The problem is you can say that about a lot of sports albeit about something else(such as football is nothing but a group of grown man playing rough with each other over a ball). You have to grow up with the sport, playing it, watching it and knowing how the game works to fully appreciate it. Once you know that and you realize how fast and hard and skilled those guys play(something that the television doesn't come close to doing justice of really showing)it is a VERY exciting sport to watch and play most of the time. Sure there are very boring matches of soccer, but that's in every sport.

I actually don't usually care rather or not someone hates soccer. Most of the time I just blow them off as someone who doesn't know what they're talking about more than likely. I think to have an actual opinion about something, especially a strong one such as hating or really disliking something, you really should have real first hand and consistent experience with that something. Most Americans don't when it comes to soccer. Most Americans are quite arrogant and ignorant when it comes to the sport. That wouldn't be a problem. The problem is though a lot of Americans will treat you like a subhuman and start getting all kinds of rude and nasty to someone who does like the sport, like its some communist attack on American values and traditions. It's really sometimes just plain weird. They also think they know everything they need to know about the sport because they played in their youth and/or they watched it a couple of times for maybe 10 minutes at the most. They don't. Most don't. I think if they were to actually really look into it, actually take a deeper look and investigate what soccer is all about, a lot more people in this country would be invested in it and finally understand what the fuss is really all about. If you don't like it find. But don't act like its not any less a sport than the one that you like just because you don't really understand and/or appreciate the sport. You also can't call it boring until you've actually watched it consistently, especially in person live in my opinion.
Wesley - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 10:36pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S6: In the Pale Moonlight

You're proving the point, Robert. Vietnam, Gulf War 1 and 2 (WMDs and Baby Incubators) etc were all started by Imperialists faking a war crime in order to justify entering a war. The party doing the faking always lies and says they are "doing this to stop an existential threat", when in reality they are the Imperialists and they are the ones interested in stealing resources/land etc.

In "Moonlight", Sisko pulls the Bush/Reagan defense. He is justified in faking WMDs, baby incubators, Gulf of Tonkins and what not, he thinks, because the enemy is even worse. The episode endorses the behaviour we see in the real world by making real the fantastical existential threat which those in the real world use to bolster their similar lies.

The reason DS9 believes this is okay, is because DS9 literally thinks the Dominion is Germany in WW2. It gets away with this shallow thinking because most Westerners have a very cartoonish view of WW2, a conflict in which the West were complicit in the creation of fascism, and actively fanned the class warfare which let to Hitler (not to mention most subsequent dictators, terrorists etc across the globe).

And of course the West in WW2 were, in aggregate, worse Imperialists than Germany. Britain would kill almost 2 billion in India over its 200 year rule there, not to mention it had colonies across the globe. America would itself commit genocides in the Phillipines and Indonesia and so forth. The point is, DS9 uses very well known real world behaviour but obscures the lessons we should learn from them. If DS9 were intellectually honest, it would LITERALLY DEAL with the Federation's slide into horrible fascism and vehemently denounce this as unnaceptable. Instead all the episodes like MOONLIGHT just tip-toe or abandon these issues.

The Dominion as portrayed in DS9 is a fantasy. It does not and can not exist. To say it has a real world analogue is to insult the historical causes which led to whatever analogue you find, and to obscure the proper way to solve the end result of the historical causes which led to whatever analogue you find.

Episodes like MOONLIGHT are anti-intellectual in the worst ways, because they bolster dangerous myths.
Locke - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 10:31pm (USA Central)
Re: Star Trek: First Contact

I really love First Contact. It's a superb balance of action, character driven drama and classic Trekkian philosophy. It's really got the whole lot, and the pacing of the seperate stories is brilliant. I think structurally it's one of the best made sci-fi action movies ever, Star Trek or no. The beginning is a masterclass on how to start a movie. Set up the story, briefly set up the characters, set up Picard's past relationship with the Borg and how he has issues there and then BOOM, within 10 minutes you've learnt something about the whole situation and you're in the middle of a giant battle. No bullshit; no screwing around but also nothing skipped over... just stripped down to the essentials without time wasting. I agree with Jammer... Quote:

"It's reassuring that at least some cinematic version of the future has imagination and hope for humanity and still has the prudence not to always take itself so seriously."

That's it... There's something in the soul of this film that really understands what underlies and defines Star Trek. You CAN have this AND do a great action movie at the same time! *shakes fist at Abrams* grr! =)
Jammer - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 9:22pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S5: Let He Who Is Without Sin...

I don't normally play the Ugly American, but when it comes to soccer, I will. It is boring to watch. They should call the sport "running around a massive field and never scoring." I don't think we question the athleticism. I do think we question the fun of watching it. But that's a point of view, not an objective fact.

Most Americans have the opportunity to play the sport as children (myself included), and some play it even longer, but our culture at large just doesn't care much about it. Are we right and is the rest of the world wrong? Well, I suppose not. But that doesn't make my or any other American's opinion any less valid, and it doesn't simply necessarily arise from arrogance or ignorance. Maybe I'm not worldly about my sports. Oh well.

When it comes to some things, like sports, which, yes, is ultimately just entertainment, it's just a matter of preference. I prefer watching sports (like American football) where there are complicated rules, lots of scoring, and intricate strategies at work. Is the sport overly contrived for TV? Probably, and I say, great. What I *don't* prefer is watching people run around a massive field and scoring once (or zero times) in 90 minutes.

If that makes me an ignorant a-hole, then I must accept the label in this case.
Stickysteve - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 5:16pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S6: Face of the Enemy

I assume Troi speaks fluent Romulan. Or is she wearing the Romulan version of the universal translator? But even if she were wearing the UT, I suspect the Romulans would suspect she's not speaking Romulan and that the UT is speaking for her? I doubt it would take a lowly crewman who scrubs plasma conduits to notice this instantly, but I guess the bridge officers just have too much on their minds to notice. They are probably too preoccupied with trying how not to look stupid in their Romulan clothing.
Bad acting. Sirtis is a bad actress, acting Betazoid and Romulan equally badly. The Romulan makeup on this bad actress, as well as on Ms. Seymour was simply bad for camera. An episode made entirely irksome, and laborious to watch, by the bad acting, bad wardrobe, bad makeup, and bad sets.
This episode: all that I come away thinking after viewing it is, so does Troi speak fluent Romulan or not?
The producers made a huge improvement on the bad acting of W. Shatner by casting Sir Stewart, yet the rest of the TNG cast? Excepting Brent Spiner: bad actors (although Mr. Spiner is equally unwatchable in his atrocious acting of (yawn) Sherlock Holmes, I might add.)
This episode is a clear example of where the show, mostly the coddled cast, started coasting along until the end.
Sticky Steve - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 5:14pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S6: Face of the Enemy

I assume Troi speaks fluent Romulan. Or is she wearing the Romulan version of the universal translator? But even if she were wearing the UT, I suspect the Romulans would suspect she's not speaking Romulan and that the UT is speaking for her? I doubt it would take a lowly crewman who scrubs plasma conduits to notice this instantly, but I guess the bridge officers just have too much on their minds to notice. They are probably too preoccupied with trying how not to look stupid in their Romulan clothing.
Bad acting. Sirtis is a bad actress, acting Betazoid and Romulan equally badly. The Romulan makeup on this bad actress, as well as on Ms. Seymour was simply bad for camera. An episode made entirely irksome, and laborious to watch, by the bad acting, bad wardrobe, bad makeup, and bad sets.
This episode: all that I come away thinking after viewing it is, so does Troi speak fluent Romulan or not?
The producers made a huge improvement on the bad acting of W. Shatner by casting Sir Stewart, yet the rest of the TNG cast? Excepting Brent Spiner: bad actors (although Mr. Spiner is equally unwatchable in his atrocious acting of (yawn) Sherlock Holmes, I might add.)
This episode is a clear example of where the show, mostly the coddled cast, started coasting along until the end.
jk - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 4:36pm (USA Central)
Re: VOY S3: Blood Fever

The authors cheated: wasn't there supposed to be a fight to the death? Not that Spock actually died in Amok Time. I guess the death thing was some kind of Vulcan scam, like what they say about turning blind.

Also I think someone shold mention how B'Elanna knew exactly that she didn't want the bad ugly Vulcan nobody, as opposed to how she couldn't resist awesome Tom Paris. The discrimination between the two made the consent issue much less relevant for me. She seemed to know what she wanted after all.
Toony - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 3:27pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S7: Extreme Measures

The genocide of the founders began before starfleet found the quickening, it's possible this was more a joint section 31 and Tal Shiar plot in response to the destruction of a Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order task force, the bombing of a Romulan Federation conference, the Defiant nearly attacking the Tzenkethi and the destabilization of the Khotomer Accords and Cardassian Union.
Toony - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 3:13pm (USA Central)
Re: VOY S5: Extreme Risk

Know what made the 'we must build a new shuttle' plot redundant? they already have a Runabout equivalent sitting beneath the saucer section, it's called the Aeroshuttle.
Toony - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 2:48pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S5: For the Uniform

So I take it Sisko was following starfleet general order 24 then. Watch TOS 'A taste of Armageddon' for reference. It's equivalent to General Order 7 where any Starfleet or Federation citazen will be executed for travelling to planets like Talos 4.
Arachnea - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 2:07pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S6: In the Pale Moonlight

Sorry. It doesn't work, I'm trying one last time...

"Others can say "Picard would have found a way to negotiate", but that's just silly. In the face of what we've seen, there's no reason to assume the Dominion has any interest in negotiations."

Here lies the problem ! Sisko is not Picard. Sisko lives in the moment, with the action. Picard is - usually - an educated diplomat.

More over, all the negociations have been done with the Vortas, NOT the Changelings, which is a huge mistake and a waste of time (knowing that for them, Changelings are Gods !). Each time officers are face to face with a Changeling, they're adversarial and don't even try to start a discussion.

For example, when Odo agrees to face judgement by his people, does Sisko take the opportunity to even ask why they're so bent on bringing order to the Alpha Quadrant ? Did he once try to negociate or try to understand the reasons behind their agressive policy by opening a dialogue ? Maybe, at that time, agreeing to close the wormhole would have been enough. Or maybe not, but at least we would have known that the war was indeed unavoidable.

(And what about Odo ? We don't see him at least once try to talk peace to the female Changeling. But he's not Federation, so I'll let this one pass :p.)

As for the episode in itself, I already said some years ago that it is a mixed-bag. By watching it again, I'll add this:
I have no problem watching Garak pulling the Romulans to fit his agenda, because it fits the character perfectly and he does it with panache. I'd have no problem with Sisko going along with it behind the Federation's back (because that's how he's been portrayed, moral and self-righteous when he's not the one at fault, but highly immoral when it fits him). But I still can't accept the fact that the Federation would agree to manipulate a power in the Quadrant in such a fashion !

This episode would have been so much more if Sisko's struggle had not been about the lies, but about the philosophy behind the lies. Asking instead: "did I have the right to pull the Romulans into Our war, allowing their people to die as well as mine ? Is it really the greater good or is it just what I perceive as such ? Would I have done the same if, instead of Romulans, it was a race I didn't despise ? And finally, is the price of balancing the war by removing the free choice of the Romulans to be neutral worth it, just because I believe the Alpha Quadrant is better off without the Dominion - and so, all should think the same !!?"
Arachnea - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 2:05pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S6: In the Pale Moonlight

Hum... didn't take the rest of my post :D

Arachnea - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 2:04pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S6: In the Pale Moonlight

@zzybaloobah
William B - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 10:16am (USA Central)
Re: TOS S3: Turnabout Intruder

Comments on TOS overall:

I was overall very pleased with TOS in this rewatch. Season one, in particular, is fantastic, even the weak episodes being quite fresh. Season two is a little bipolar, with some of the series' very best and very worst mixed together, and some mediocre periods as well. What really impressed me, and what I wasn't in a good position to note when I watched the series (scattershot, out of order) when younger, is how well the character development works, in particular Spock's subtle changes with respect to humanity (and his own humanity), and the Kirk/Spock/McCoy bond. There does seem to be a progression through the series, more so than is obvious at first glance. I was also a little surprised that the fairly routine Kirk-bangs-hot-alien-chick material didn't become a cliche until the second season. I was also impressed with Kirk's stoicism, particularly in season one; the exaggerated acting style Shatner is known for in the role is something that gathers steam as the series progresses (partly as the scripts get worse), but initially at least Kirk really does seem a balance between Spock's excessive dislike of emotionality and McCoy's excessive position against Spock's rational nature.

My personal top ten:

1. The City on the Edge of Forever
2. Mirror, Mirror
3. The Doomsday Machine
4. The Trouble with Tribbles
5. Balance of Terror
6. Amok Time
7. The Enterprise Incident
8. The Menagerie
9. Space Seed
10. Tomorrow is Yesterday

Some candidates for the top ten which just missed: The Enemy Within, The Galileo Seven, The Ultimate Computer, The Empath, All Our Yesterdays.
Robert - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 9:56am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S7: Treachery, Faith, and the Great River

@Jeff - You're knocking a long standing Star Trek trope! Scotty and Kirk used to have these kinds of arguments all the time :P
Robert - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 8:37am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S5: Let He Who Is Without Sin...

Just to qualify the statement "Football has more amazing plays than soccer", I mean that the frequency of plays that have people on the edge of their seat are higher than soccer. I don't mean that an awesome Football play is more awesome than an awesome Soccer play. I'll let sports fans debate that.
Robert - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 7:47am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S5: Let He Who Is Without Sin...

As an American who's sole sporting watching typically involves the World Cup and the Superbowl I feel I am uniquely qualified to chime in here.

The Superbowl is a fun excuse to eat hot wings and watch stupid commercials and the World Cup is a fun event to chat about with all of your friends from different countries.

As to Soccer and Football though? They are both pretty stupid. Americans don't like soccer because of the element of performance art to it and the low scoring. Some of the best players in the world are some of the best divers in the world. There's also a objectiveness to the rulings that feel unfair. Americans HATE unfair.

You want to know what Americans do like? Excess. That's why we have 48 oz drinks and why Football goals give 6 points. Add an extra 5 points to each Soccer goal and the ratings will go up, I assure you! The truth is that Football has more amazing plays than soccer (unless you're really into defense, in which case soccer is beautiful) but the majority of it are a bunch of guys ramming into each other in ridiculously heavy "armor" to gain 3 yards. Yawn to that as well.

Worf would have played hockey. With a bat'leth. Qapla'!
$G - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 1:25am (USA Central)
Re: TNG S4: Future Imperfect

Hang on, I take back what I said about Barush being the silliest, most moment-killing reveal in Trek.

That award goes to Enterprise's season 3 finale.

Second place ain't bad.
$G - Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 1:21am (USA Central)
Re: TNG S4: Future Imperfect

I was enjoying this one for a bit. Riker's freakout is really well done, and I like watching characters feel out a scenario (Crusher did it just a few eps ago, too). The Minuet continuity was a really neat call back too. But I found that my interest really wavered during the Romulan prison section. It just felt so punch-less.

Then the ending, which - well... This might be the only Trek episode that guts itself entirely in the last 30 seconds. I *like* the idea of Barush, but that costume...

Just... WHAT IN THE WORLD.

Absolutely the silliest, most moment-killing reveal in any Trek I can remember. I was laughing well into the credits and my girlfriend just facepalmed until the music stopped. I honestly don't even know how I'd rate this episode - it's not even *bad*. It's pretty okay, actually, but I'll never be able to think of this episode without laughing at it no matter what other merits it might have.
NCC-1701-Z - Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 11:29pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S7: Attached

I think my favorite aspect of this ep was watching Riker give both sides a talking to, jabbing them both in the places where it hurt the most (especially threatening to pester the xenophobic, isolationist Prytt with all of Starfleet's resources as invasively as possible). Very Kirk-like of him, I felt.
Mark - Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 8:14pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S5: Let He Who Is Without Sin...

What I don't get is what exactly is your issue? Why do you and other Americans hate soccer so much that you act like such childish rude assholes about it? You've missed my point entirely here and have completely supported my point about arguing with a brick wall regardless. Get over yourself and take your pompous attitude somewhere else. You just sound like some nerd who likes to boast about how much contact a sport has or how more "manly" a sport is over another despite the fact that you don't compete in any of these sports yourself. Yes of course football has injuries just as bad as soccer, my point was that soccer has lots of contact despite what you may believe. But again I don't expect that you'll see reason because you just seem very stubborn and narrow minded.

In all reality its a ridiculous thing to talk about rather or not a fictional race on a TV show from 20 years ago would compete in a "non contact" sport. It hardly even matters. However you've made yourself look foolish by acting like soccer isn't a sport because it doesn't allow you to use hands, is a socialist flop sport and involves "heavy" touching. I don't think you could go anymore with the stereotypical ignorant American who knows nothing about soccer more if you tried.
Grumpy - Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 7:09pm (USA Central)
Re: VOY S1: Jetrel

@Adam
In the 24th century, everyone in France speaks with a British accent, so naturally their billiards culture will have changed, too.
Yanks - Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 6:16pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S5: Let He Who Is Without Sin...

Mark, your rant is laughable.

Soccer is "hard" and folks break and tear things.

That really supports your argument.

You could look up injuries in American football (because you brought it up) and compare it to soccer, but then you wouldn't have an argument. I'm sure folks tear things in badminton too.

As to what started this, I guess you're right. I can picture little Klingon kids running around and not scoring the entire game... making sure they didn't plow someone over or hurt someone. I'm sure millions of Klingon warriors would have loved to attend those games. Especially when their kids can get a yellow card for tripping someone or using their hands...or get a red card and removed from the game for being too rough.

That sounds Klingon to me. Song material there.

You win.
Mark - Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 5:01pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S5: Let He Who Is Without Sin...

I think at this point its obvious you're just another ignorant stubborn jackass who only sees what you want. No I haven't played football. I've had friends who have though and soccer as well who have told me that soccer is so much harder. A muslim friend of mine who was on both his semi pro soccer team in his country and football team in college at different times said that during conversation at one time. I also have a friend from Cameroon who has done the same thing more or less. Said pretty much the same thing as well. Soccer is a contact sport rather you want to see that or not. If you've ever been to an in live world class professional game you would see this. It also takes more skill to be really good at it. Maybe you should look up online at all the bad leg breaks, acl tears, and deep leg cuts(look up wayne rooney leg cut, or leg breaks soccer on google) to see just how much of a "non-contact" sport soccer is.

I don't expect any change in opinion however. It's like arguing with a brick wall when it comes to debating with people like you. Have a nice day.
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