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Yanks
Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 11:06am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

Peter G,

'You guys are seriously going to point out that Trek's treatment of women hasn't changed since the 60's, and you're going to *celebrate* that? To be fair, I think society's sexualization of women has greatly devolved since the 60's, so from that standpoint ENT is probably accurately indicative of the general state of things. No surprises there, I suppose. But I suspect the reason Trek fans are displeased at the sexualization (of a Vulcan, no less) on ENT is because Trek is supposed to be representative of a future that is beyond racism and sexism, and certainly part of that vision should be avoiding sexualizing people for profit. Is it surprising that the producers did it? No, especially given what we know about Berman and Braga. Is it a betrayal of ST values? Absolutely."

One could argue correctly that TOS pushed the envelope more than any other series. Every female alien was a hotty in a nightgown or almost nothing and all females on good ole 1701 were in mini-skirts. Quite the god-awful sexist uniform.

I could go on and on....

As to 7 and T'Pol, I don't see their catsuits as "limiting" at all. They are beautiful women. To see them as only a sex symbol is not very fitting in the future as defined in TOS. There isn't a female included in the crew of any series that hasn't been exploited because of their good looks.

It's the future, don't fight it.
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Peter G.
Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:35am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

@ Luke,

Frankly I think that sci-fi fans are exactly the type to appreciate a little fan service when it's appropriate. Star Wars fans aren't identical to Star Trek, of course, but when discussing slave Leia a typical comment runs along the lines of "We realize that portraying her this way isn't so cool...EXCEPT IT'S AWESOME!!" The important detail with Leia is that she had already been established as a person with integrity previously and when the fan service came it was obviously a bit 'meta' in terms of being literally irrelevant but inserted to appeal to fans.

That is not what they did with Seven, and later with T'Pol. In both cases that went for sexualizing them right out of the gate before they had been established as having fans backing them up for who they were. William B's points about sex object versus sexual being are also pertinent, and I think that's a subset of what I'm discussing, which is respect. The writers of VOY and ENT were fundamentally not respectful of those two characters (or any of the characters on ENT) and went for fan service prior to us even getting to know them. It's a small miracle that Jeri Ryan was as good as she was and earned the respect of fans *despite* having the handicap of being seen as a sex object from the word go.

And although you may be able to cite to the odd duck who has a problem with Dax in a swimsuit I think they're just weird. They are not a typical Trek fan. Some people I know actually lament how un-sexual Trek can be for the most part, and although I'm on the fence about whether I'd want that element inserted, I'd much rather have some sexual tension than random bodysuits with no purpose but to show off an actress's assets. And this is relevant - when it's just the actress being shown off that really is gratuitous. It's different when the character has a certain point of view that justified her *wanting* to show off in some way. In a sort of silly way, DS9's Leeta is a good example of this, where she was dressed in a certain way but it was because (a) her job demanded it, and (b) she was a kind of cute and carefree type who actually wouldn't care whether she was exposed or not (as we see in "Dr. Bashir, I presume"). She it's 'appropriate' that she might be shown in this way, but Kira is more modest.

As Moore mentions, if you had wanted to portray Seven in a bodysuit, then have the guts to follow through on that and portray her as someone with literally no sense of shame or restraint, who doesn't care how she's seen or what people think of her. Make the costume something she's chosen, rather than a piece of unreality that even the crew members don't speak of. She could have been having her way with the male crew members and not giving a whit what Janeway thought about it. Now *that* would have been an interesting conversation.
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Chrome
Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 6:31am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

@Luke

I think you read my comment out of context, but just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing that actresses agreed to wear certain costumes. I do not, however, think they necessarily LIKED doing it. There's a famous interview by Sirtis where she talks about how much she thought Troi improved after getting to wear a uniform in "Chain of Command". Sirtis obviously retained that uniform for the rest of the series.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make with Farrell's swimsuit in "Sin". It's got to be the modest swimsuit in franchise history.
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William B
Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 3:08am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

Well, again, I haven't seen this episode. And I haven't watched those SFDebris reviews, for that matter -- so maybe I just missed the big sex-negative movement. But anyway, I mean, "sexualized character is interested in sex" can be a necessary condition for liking a sexytimes Trek story, without being a sufficient one -- it still has to not suck, which is of course the problem most people (including me) have with, e.g., Let He Who Is Without Sin, and some (not me, because I haven't seen) have with this one.
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Luke
Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 2:28am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

@ Jason R - "What people don't like is when Trek uses sex appeal as a substitute for good story or to distract from poor quality. It's not about being offended by female nudity - it's being offended by the notion that putting an actress in her underwear can distract us from a terrible episode. "

Then why does this subset of Trek fans complain every single time any kind of nudity, or sexuality, appears on screen. Every. Single. Time. They even complain when it happens in an otherwise good, or at least decent, episode. Going back to SFDebris and his obsession with it, look no further than his review of DS9: "Distant Voices". At one point, after we've realized everything is taking place in Bashir's imagination, there's a Dabo Girl who sings "Happy Birthday". SFDebris complains that she's wearing a skin-tight costume even though it fits perfectly in the story as Bashir is fantasizing about having a sexy woman singing to him. Or how about VOY: "Warlord", when Torres shows up in a swimsuit at one point. They complain about that as well, even though it makes perfect sense story-wise as she's taking part in a beach resort holo-program (and it's not even a very revealing swimsuit - it's a one-piece). Like I said.... Every. Single. Time.

@ Peter G - "But I suspect the reason Trek fans are displeased at the sexualization (of a Vulcan, no less) on ENT is because Trek is supposed to be representative of a future that is beyond racism and sexism, and certainly part of that vision should be avoiding sexualizing people for profit."

If that's the case then why don't these sex-negative fans get anywhere near as outraged when a man is shown without his shirt on, or with even less clothes on. I don't remember anybody getting as outraged as Jammer does in this very review whenever William Shatner appeared topless. In fact, TOS may have shown more male than female skin.

@ William B - "I am also reminded of Ron Moore's comment in his famous Voyager rant about Seven's outfit -- if you want her to be sexualized, have her be interested in sex."

Then the sex-negative Trek fans shouldn't have a problem this episode, as T'Pol's entire plot revolves solely around her intense interest in having sex. And yet, here we are.

@ Chrome - "The best I could hope is that the actress and maybe some of the female writers have some input as to whether they think a woman in the 23 - 24th century would wear a particular costume. "

Nobody ever forced Marina Sirtis to wear those body hugging costumes Troi almost always wore. Nobody ever forced Jeri Ryan to wear those catsuits. Nobody ever forced Terry Farrell to wear a swimsuit in DS9: "Let He Who Is Without Sin...". Nobody ever forced Roxann Dawson to wear a swimsuit in VOY: "Warlord". Nobody ever forced Jeri Ryan to wear catsuits. Nobody ever forced Linda Park to appear in her underwear. And nobody ever forced Jolene Blalock to wear catsuits or to appear in semi-naked scenes. Every single one of those women chose, of her own free will, to do those things. Each one said something along the lines of "yes, I'm comfortable with my body and I'm happy to show it off." They all could have simply put their feet down and refused to do it. I find it odd that as you advocate for women's agency you're willing to strip these women of that very agency and portray them as simply being acted upon by the powers that be.

@ Jason R - "In the 90s it was sleazy, phony and lame all in the same package. The irony with Jeri Ryan was that she was really a talented actress and the writing for her character was good..."

Indeed it is a shame that the sex-negative fans can't seem to look past her physical appearance. You're right: Ryan is a very good actress. I even think that Jolene Blalock is a better actress than most people give her credit for. I'd rather focus on their characters. However, the sex-negative fans always say: "We shouldn't focus on their bodies! Now shut up while I do nothing but focus on their bodies!"

@ William B - "... they read as purely adolescent fantasies partly *because* it seems inconceivable that they could actually have sex or be so interested -- to appeal to teens who are hormonal but also threatened by sex (and especially by female desire, as opposed to desirable females). And that genuinely seems to be part of the design -- as if people being sex objects for audience purposes is what they want, in order to sell the shows, but for them to be sexual beings with their own desires would be a bridge too far and might alienate people. "

And yet, again, in this very episode T'Pol has an overwhelmingly intense desire to do just that - actually have sex. It gets to the point where she's willing to jump both Phlox's and Reed's bones on the spot because she desires it so badly. And yet, Jammer and quite a few commenters still lambast the episode for daring to show Blalock in a state of semi-undress.
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DragonHead
Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 12:28am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: Pen Pals

some incredibly wishy washy historical comments here
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Greg
Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 12:25am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: The Man Trap

Skeptical,
If memory serves the salt creature did plead for its life after McCoy shot it for the first time. "Leonard No!"
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RandomThoughts
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 10:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: Hero Worship

Hello Everyone!

@jaryd

Yes... the castle-building scene. My youngest Grandson is three, and he would be able to figure out you have to have supports before putting up more parts. I've seen him do it! :) I don't care how traumatized he was, the young'un should have been able to figure that out. I never liked that particular scene, because it felt forced to let Data have a teaching moment.

Regards... RT
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RandomThoughts
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 10:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: The Arsenal of Freedom

Hello Everyone!

@Peter G.

Well, perhaps I was being a bit flippant about seeing them floating around at Starfleet, because I totally agree with you. That doesn't mean the weapons folks wouldn't still be salivating over this technology, just that they shouldn't use it. :)

In a way though, and it's been discussed before for many different episodes, they seem to find some new breakthrough, or weapon system, that should/could make the Federation nearly invincible (at least to their peers in the galaxy), and we never hear about it again. While things might be going on in the background, I wish they'd brought some of that to the forefront a bit more, especially if/when they seemed to be on a war footing.

But agreed, some of the things should never be used. Doomsday Machine comes to mind. :)

Regards... RT
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R.J.
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:32pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: The Dauphin

^ Ha! You win the internet.
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borusa
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 3:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: The Dauphin

In this week's episode of Space 1999 Maya finds herself abducted from Moonbase Alpha and press ganged into ending a war between two factions on a desolate planet.

Worse still Maya cannot even escape her fate by using her metamorphic abilities because her 'minder' turns out to be another Psychon.

Oh sorry-this was actually a TNG episode-are we sure though cos all those bug eyed monsters looked as crap as the ones Catherine Schell turned into in Space 1999.

Wesley kisses a gurl-oh for Pete's sake!

1 star
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Quarkissnyder
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 2:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S6: The Sound of Her Voice

I understand that Odo is not bound by any rule of law that requires a search warrant or respect for a reasonable expectation of privacy, but sometimes his spying is just creepy. What's to stop him from being a peeping tom?

The relationship between Quark and Odo makes little sense given everything they have now been through together. Why does the series consistently overlook that Quark is a hero from when the dominion was occupying DS9? Odo does not want Quark to go to jail, and it's weird that Quark thinks that he does.

In all these years Quark has never managed to smuggle anything onto DS9 on Odo's watch. I had kind of assumed that he was actually getting away with a lot, or he would have stopped trying, but this episode confirms that this was the first time he has ever succeeded. Which begs the question -- why does he keep trying? Why not put his efforts into opening a satellite bar on Bajor or something? It seems like that would be a lot more profitable.

As for the A plot: It fell flat because no one addressed anything real. I assumed that Sisko was planning on dumping the rarely seen girlfriend, but no, he just doesn't want her on the bridge.

O'Brien doesn't feel as close to his friends as he did because of the war, but we've never seen that. To the contrary, we have seen him speaking to Julian about very personal things, such as after his undercover operation.

Julian's speech at the end had little to do with his conversations with the woman.

I also didn't buy Lisa as a character. For one thing, she's just lost her entire crew but seems not too upset about it.

Wouldn't the characters be aware that everything they are saying to Lisa is being recorded, and self-censor quite a bit more than they did?
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Chrome
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 1:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

I can't help but be reminded of "Let He Who is Without Sin", which was totally hyped to be this scandalous sex planet in the teaser, only to be shown costumes less provocative than the citizens of "Justice". Basically, this type of executive meddling pleases no one.

But yes, to tack onto William B's point, one of the few episode of Enterprise I caught involved ensign Hoshi Sato who for some reason couldn't complete the mission with her uniform on, and well, let's just say I probably missed whatever point the writers were trying to make with this crisis.
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William B
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 1:12pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

"The 90s were, to me, a really bad time for this kind of thing. You had this kind of corporatized PG13 level of tittilation that seemed gratuitous and exploitative yet tame and prudish at the same time."

I very much agree, Jason R. It's really frustrating in this time because it's like there is an intense prudishness about actual sex or sexuality combined with the exploitative outfits. Part of what's frustrating is that with Seven and T'Pol (at least early T'Pol -- I only saw s1 and some of s2, and I gather that she's eventually allowed to be a sexual being rather than sex object), they read as purely adolescent fantasies partly *because* it seems inconceivable that they could actually have sex or be so interested -- to appeal to teens who are hormonal but also threatened by sex (and especially by female desire, as opposed to desirable females). And that genuinely seems to be part of the design -- as if people being sex objects for audience purposes is what they want, in order to sell the shows, but for them to be sexual beings with their own desires would be a bridge too far and might alienate people.

I'm not apoplectic about it, but it certainly makes the shows feel tacky and hollow.
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Jason R.
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 12:49pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

As an additional aside, I do think Paramount learned the wrong lessons from Ryan's success in the Seven role. When Enterprise came out the T'Pol character was all the sex appeal but with a poor actress in the role with the charisma of a bag of rocks.

I say this as someone who drooled over Blachloch's Maxim spread at the time. But looking at a hot chick was never my motivation for watching scifi and I quit Enterprise after about three episodes. Seems I wasn't the only one given how that series petered out.
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Jason R.
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 12:43pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

The 90s were, to me, a really bad time for this kind of thing. You had this kind of corporatized PG13 level of tittilation that seemed gratuitous and exploitative yet tame and prudish at the same time.

In the 80s fantasy and scifi was often trashy and blatantly exploitative, but in a movie with T & A you at least got to actually see T & A.

In the 90s it was sleazy, phony and lame all in the same package. The irony with Jeri Ryan was that she was really a talented actress and the writing for her character was good - better than most of the crap we had tolerated on Voyager thus far.

Maybe I'm being naive but I honestly doubt having her in that skinsuit even mattered to the show's ratings. I feel like we the audience were taken to be idiots.
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Chrome
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 12:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

Star Trek is still lightyears ahead of Star Wars in terms of pandering to male audiences. I was watching "Attack of the Clones" the other day, and well, Natalie Portman wears outfits that make Seven of Nine's look like baggy pajamas.

I don't think you're ever going to please *everyone* with costumes that appeal to general audiences. The best I could hope is that the actress and maybe some of the female writers have some input as to whether they think a woman in the 23 - 24th century would wear a particular costume.
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William B
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 10:04am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

I am also reminded of Ron Moore's comment in his famous Voyager rant about Seven's outfit -- if you want her to be sexualized, have her be interested in sex. Seven is put in a body suit which is designed to be super attractive for audiences but has no organic role in story. Most of the people who complain about the titillation in costuming divorced from actual characterization don't complain about all the sex (and the titillation associated with the sex) in BSG. I can't speak to this particular episode, though.
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Yanks
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 9:54am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S1: The Andorian Incident

Agree The Cisco.

I think they took the beratement of T'Pol too far also as I indicated in my post above.

You hit the nail on the head. We can all understand Archer's personal attitude towards the Vulcan's but that's a personal vendetta and shouldn't have bled over to his role as Captain as much as it did.
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Peter G.
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 9:35am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

You guys are seriously going to point out that Trek's treatment of women hasn't changed since the 60's, and you're going to *celebrate* that? To be fair, I think society's sexualization of women has greatly devolved since the 60's, so from that standpoint ENT is probably accurately indicative of the general state of things. No surprises there, I suppose. But I suspect the reason Trek fans are displeased at the sexualization (of a Vulcan, no less) on ENT is because Trek is supposed to be representative of a future that is beyond racism and sexism, and certainly part of that vision should be avoiding sexualizing people for profit. Is it surprising that the producers did it? No, especially given what we know about Berman and Braga. Is it a betrayal of ST values? Absolutely.
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Jason R.
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 9:31am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

Luke I don't really see negative comments here coming from a place of prudishness. You are misreading the situation. What people don't like is when Trek uses sex appeal as a substitute for good story or to distract from poor quality. It's not about being offended by female nudity - it's being offended by the notion that putting an actress in her underwear can distract us from a terrible episode.
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Yanks
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 9:29am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

Agree Luke. Trek has always been an American TV series that uses the same lures as any other TV series. It has always pushed the "limits of the day" with regard to drama and sex. No different than any other TV show.

TOS-Enterprise, it's never changed.
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David G
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:57am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S4: Scientific Method

Good episode, terrible review.
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Connor
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:40am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S4: Demon

Not a great episode, but I too think it's worth more than half a star. I like how the events of this episode are continued in "Course: Oblivion", which I recall being quite dark when I saw it on TV maybe a decade ago. I'm looking forward to watching that again when I get up to it and seeing if it's as good as I remember.
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Gooz
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:06am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S7: Endgame

Crap ending for a crap series.

Nice that captain Kim will be demoted to ensign for helping Janeway. It's the only closure we get.
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