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- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 8:56pm (USA Central)
Hated this episode. I found it incredibly convenient that ALL of the commissioned officers died - I kept waiting for a scene where Watters admitted to killing them all, but I suppose that would have been too extreme even for the baloney in this episode.
Also the fact that the Vulcan cadets just agree with what's happening. What happened to logic? If it had been any other species then fine, but Vulcans? Like someone mentioned above, I almost cheered when the Valiant exploded.
Guess in a way, the directors succeeded in this episode, since they obviously evoked such strong feelings in the audience.
Also I have to echo an earlier poster that "The existence of an "elite of the elite" organization WITHIN Starfleet bothers me more than Section 31." Same for Nick Locarno's Nova Squadron or whatever it was called. Section 31 really played the shades of grey issue much better. They asked the audience to consider how much was "too far" in a war, in the same way Garak did in 'In the Pale Moonlight.' All this episode did was to make me ask why the "best and brightest" of Starfleet were a bunch of arrogant, bigheaded and megalomaniac a**es.
The lack of closure at the end also really irritated me. I have a feeling that a lot less people would have disliked this episode as much, if we'd been shown a scene of Sisko firmly dressing down Nog or that Red Squad girl, or even Nog apologising to Jake and admitting that he was right. Instead Nog keeps on getting promoted and pulls off stunts that apparently half the senior VOY crew can't... Never could swallow that. I also agree with a previous comment that Nog is DS9's Wesley Crusher. At the end of season 7, he ends up as a Lietenant. REALLY?
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 8:12pm (USA Central)
Why is it, in the midst of this preposterous idea of giant viruses flying around Voyager and melting transporters and stabbing people in order and carrying them off to their hive and all that other scientific silliness... why is it that my suspension of disbelief fails when Paris starts waving around a 12 kg chunk of meat like it was nothing? Sigh... seriously writers, some words have real meaning and can't just be used like technobabble.
As for the episode itself, it's dumb fun. Not sure much else needs to be said about it.
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 8:06pm (USA Central)
The Q and the Grey
Move over Threshold, we have a new worst episode in town.
Let's start with the fact that they spent the first half of the movie doubling down on the stupidest part of Death Wish: Q hitting on Janeway. This is, without a doubt, the most juvenile thing I have seen on Voyager (and yes, that includes salamander-sex in Threshold). It is nothing but a farce. Remember, Q is a god-like being, far beyond our way of thinking. So why? Why is he forced into every bad cliche of a nerd hitting on a girl?
I mean, at least with Picard hitting on Lwaxana in Menage a Troi was supposed to be embarrassing for Picard, hence the comedy. Here, it's only embarrassing for John deLancie and the viewers who are forced to see this.
This is the Q who shrugged off the death of 18 Starfleet officers in Q Who as irrelevant. This is the Q who considers humanity as barely beneath contempt, and only interesting for what they would become. This is the Q that told Picard flat out that he would have appeared first as a woman after seeing Vash. This is the Q that didn't even know what hunger and sleepiness felt like, much less any romantic inclinations. In other words, Q isn't male! He's an omniscient being!
So why, then, is there a female Q? That Q apparently "dated"? What does that even mean in the Q Continuum? Who, of course, acted like a stereotypical woman, because Voyager writers have no imagination. What, prey tell, does human gender differences and romantic interactions have to do with an immortal, omnipotent species? Absolutely nothing.
It didn't fit the show, and it wasn't funny in the first place. Sure, the latter part may be a matter of taste, but the former isn't. This is completely out of character.
Next, let's look at the Q Continuum itself. When last we saw it, Quinn referred to it as a metaphor for the real Continuum so that the Voyager crew could comprehend it. Most tellingly, none of them interacted with anything in the Continuum, because, well, how could they? It was a mere metaphor, and it's not like Janeway is all-powerful or anything. It was just a visual representation, nothing more.
But now? It's real. Oh sure, it still takes the form of something that Janeway could understand or whatever. But that "metaphor" is actually real. The rifle that shot Q formed blood, and Janeway was tending to his wounds. So, either she was literally tending to a literal bullet wound in Q (which makes no sense), she was just doing stuff that made no impact whatsoever since the wound was only metaphorical (which doesn't make sense, as Q was reacting to it), or she was tending to whatever his real wound was somehow and somehow gained the power to do that despite not actually having any powers beyond being a human Starfleet captain (which doesn't make sense either). So which is it? The answer is the third one, because the rest of the crew appeared with rifles and the Southern Q all surrendered! Yes, Tom Paris is so awesome that he is able to defeat a Q.
And Southern General Q says that they are using Q weaponry. So wait, Q have technology? Voyager can just fly into a supernova to reach the Continuum? How does any of this relate to anything we know about the Q? They are no longer the Q, they are just Trelanes. Just really powerful humans with super fancy technology. Nothing that sets them apart.
And that last part is important: this episode shows the Q acting just like humans. TNG showed that the Q both disdained and were intrigued by humans. Disdained us because we could act awfully primitive at times. Found us intriguing because of our capability to grow and evolve. But they were only interested in humanity's potential, not the "pettiness" that much of humanity is engaged in. Yet here, it is the Q who are petty. De Lancie trying to get in Janeway's pants. Plakson Q acting like a scorned girlfriend with PMS. Southern Fried General Q acting like an obstinate fool. Stock characters, in other words. Nothing unique about them.
In brief, this episode is completely devoid of anything related to the Q that we know.
And as an episode, it's a mess too. Like I said, the juvenile "love triangle" was just silly, and that was a huge chunk of the episode. The Civil War was silly too. There were a few halfway decent scenes between Janeway and De Lancie Q, but that's about it. On the whole, it was trying to be cheesy and fun, but failed miserably on that last part.
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 7:18pm (USA Central)
To the fool who said Avery was overacting. He played those scenes superbly. These were emotion driven scenes and he did not overact. Maybe some people think everyone should be bland and passive and if they laughed out loud it is an overreaction. I am glad none of you are paid film critics.
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 7:13pm (USA Central)
Take Me Out to the Holosuite
I really don't get people who don't like this episode or, worse, compare it to the likes of "Profit and Lace". It is surely the ultimate expression of Sisko's idiosyncratic love of baseball (as compared to most other characters who don't know anything about it). The "manufactured triumph" is a nice subversion of the typical sports plot.
A couple quick points:
- I think this marks the only appearance of the Federation anthem.
- I love the moment when Odo throws Sisko out of the game.
- I really, really want one of the Niners caps.
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 7:10pm (USA Central)
Children of Time
I'm curious about the sex.
If they knew that children and a civilization is supposed to be born, then wouldn't O'Brien be "forced" to have kids with that ensign woman, just for the purpose of popping out babies?
Then, to preserve genetic diversity, the crew would have to mix their breeding around.
I can imagine Odo drawing up plans about who is to boom-boom who, in order to bring order to chaos, and everyone justs drops their trousers while Odo records everything for orderly note taking.
Maybe I'm sick and need mental help, but all I kept thinking when watching this ep is ...
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 6:55pm (USA Central)
This episode was fun to watch, it was kind of like DS9's version of Resident Evil. As so many people have commented before me, Garak makes every episode he's in. The death of the red shirts and the whiney Bolian was predictable but still gave the audience a rueful grin, although I too wish that they hadn't ALL been killed.
One of the most interesting things here is seeing how the Chief's character has developed since his initial appearances in TNG. People here have compared him to his reaction to Cardassians in 'The Wounded,' which is admittedly what I think of every time I see him interacting with any Cardassians - in this case Garak. He's come a long way since the prejudiced, PTSD officer who baulks at Cardassians.
Another thing is Garak's comments on Setlik III and his constant reminders to the rest of the away crew, and in fact the rest of the DS9 members during the whole run of the show, of how race is such a huge part of our identity that it can never be completely eradicated. How far can friendships and prejudices go? I just finished watching 'For the Cause' yesterday, where Eddington makes his amazing speech to Sisko - "Everyone should want to be in the Federation." For them, if you're not with the Federation then you're against them.
Ultimately DS9 is a how about how people struggle to overcome their racial boundaries and prejudices, but realise that they can only go so far. Worf is a pretty good example - all Ferengis and Cardassians to him, for instance, are by default 'dishonourable', and the decent Ferengi or Cardassian is to him the exception rather than the rule. In 'Looking for par'Mach,' I felt a bit annoyed when he constantly belittled Quark for being a Ferengi during the first half of the episode. In 'What you leave behind,' when Bashir attempts to comfort Garak in the aftermath of the destruction of Cardassia, Garak tells him "Spare me your insufferable Federation optimism." DS9's a realistic reminder, in contrast to the kumbaya optimism of TNG and VOY, that races are and always will be that different, and that those differences can never be truly reconciled, only temporarily buried.
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 5:09pm (USA Central)
mothing = nothing
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 5:08pm (USA Central)
He did ruin his life:
Stopped being a writer.
Lost his wife.
Years of study in advanced physics ( even though he doesn't come across as very bright )
... I admit its a sad circumstance. If someone close to me died, then reappeared after years apart, I would feel sad. But, possibly, mothing could be done.
... say hi, feel sad and mourn again, then leave it. Sisko himself wanted more for Jake.
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 5:01pm (USA Central)
Rules of Engagement
I have a few comments or opinions about this episode: First, Klingons as a whole are crap. Second, Kira should not be able to command a Federation Starship, not unless there is an emergency situation (like Sisko, Worf, Dax and Obrien are missing) Third, the Federation would never extradite Worf regardless how much the Klingons cried. Fourth, On TOS, if have seen Scotty sit in the Captain's chair, when Kirk and Spock were on some mission and this was more than once. Scotty was an engineer like Obrien but, Scotty had a higher rank, I believe Lt. Commander.
That's my 2 cents.
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 4:34pm (USA Central)
Well, I understand the criticisms but I have some time for this episode.
I would have liked the plot to have included some explanation of the Reptilian trio's time hopping but the show makers wanted to keep the Xindi's 'patron' alien race a secret until a later episode.
I hadn't watched this episode in ten years but it was one that had stuck in my mind.
Yes,the action sequences were nothing new but ,to be fair, shooting and punching were Archer's favoured method of dealing with opponents ( after getting out of a jail cell).
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 2:56pm (USA Central)
What You Leave Behind
@zzybaloobah: In any case, the bioweapon attack on the Founders isn't "genocide" -- not in the normal sense of the word.
Genocide has strong negative connotations for 2 reasons:
1) It's *mass* murder. Arguably, the Great Link is a single organism. The rules of "mass murder" simply don't apply.
2) It's indiscrimate targeting of all, including non-combatants. But, all Founders are either direct combatants, or members of an entitty that is guilty of massive war crimes, including genocide and the total subjugation of slave races (Vorta, Jem'Hadar). If breeding slave races to fight your battles isn't a massive war crime then I don't know what is.
It could even be argued that the Founders are the only real combatants since the Jem Hadar and the Vorta are just clones serving the Founders purposes and fighting on their behalf.
Part of the reason the Dominion is so strong and so close to winning the war on multiple occasions is that the Founders don't really care about the lives of anyone. There is no cost to them. If Jem Hadar/Vorta are killed, you just manufacture more of them. They have two slave races of entirely disposable people genetically programmed to fight and die for the Founders. A billion Jem Hadar could be killed and the Founders wouldn't care. Simply ramp up production at the cloning facility and in a few months or years, the loss is nullified.
Without the virus, the war against the Alpha Quadrant was entirely a win-win situation for the Changelings. If the Dominion wins, they win. If the Dominion loses, billions of AQ solids are exterminated. Remember, the Changelings hate ALL solids. Their goal is to control or destroy all of them. So even if the Dominion loses and fails to gain control over the entire AQ, what do the Founders get? Billions of dead Cardassian, Klingon, Breen, Romulan, and Federation peoples. Hardly a loss from their POV. The Founders would just assume kill all Cardassians as rule over them, and they don't really care anything for their disposable slave Jem Hadar or Vorta. All of their "solid" enemies everywhere die brutally while they sit back comfortably out of harm's way.
Attacking the Changelings through this virus seems the only way to get them to have any skin (or liquid) in the game.
Though, I must bring up one other point I just considered and hadn't really seen addressed elsewhere.......Odo was apparently infected with the virus back in S4. The Dominion certainly posed a threat at that junction and there had been a few deadly skirmishes, but the Federation was not technically at war with them yet. The Cardassians hadn't even yet joined the Dominion. It wasn't a peace, and the Cardassians/Romulans had tried to destroy the Founders' homeworld with conventional weapons the prior year (a military strike that Starfleet Command seemed tacitly willing to accept even if not wholly endorsing it or willing to carry the attack out themselves), but it is fairly dark to wage this kind of biological warfare as a first strike against an enemy that the Federation wasn't even technically at war with yet.
dave in nc
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 1:53pm (USA Central)
Redemption, Part II
What about BOBW Parts I & II and Family?
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 12:29pm (USA Central)
Redemption, Part II
@Tom: I don't think there was a 3-part ST episode until the 'Homecoming / Circle / Siege' episodes to kick off DS9's season 2, if that counts.
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 12:25pm (USA Central)
@MsV: You must not have watched 'Let He Who is Without Sin' or 'Cost of Living' yet. This episode is WAAAAAY better than those are.
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 3:15am (USA Central)
@Dimpy Why would Jake ruin his whole life over ghost dad....
Love. and he could not let go, every time he tried to...Dad appeared. His father was not dead, but lost in time. It would have been easier if Ben had died, but he didn't.
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 1:30am (USA Central)
The Way of the Warrior
Regarding Klingons, I don't believe all Klingons are that powerful. Their culture is very diverse as all cultures. Some are strong and some are not, but that does not keep them from joining their military. I don't believe they are as stupid as they are portrayed. I just watched "Search for Spock", The Genesis project was to be a helpful project, bringing life to dead planets, when the Klingons heard of it, they called it a weapon. Why did they seem to see everything in the opposite way? When I watched the "Undiscovered Country," I saw where there was one Klingon that saw things differently. The Chancelor that was killed, I for one do not know how the Klingon Empire survived, they were totally unreasonable and lived in a crazy mixed up society.
- Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 12:56am (USA Central)
A great season end. This is my second time seeing this episode and it was really good. I was also surprised at Sisko's despondency over the self-destruct countdown, not a normal Sisko moment. Regardless, it didn't take away from the show. I am with the rest of you, why was Kira on the ship? Maybe I am being nitpicky, but they should have locked the blue-guy in his quarters or the brig. He was too scared, he disobeyed his captain after he totally panicked and accused Kira of being a shapeshifter. I think he was so scared he was seeing things.
- Sun, Mar 1, 2015, 11:44pm (USA Central)
The Quality of Life
I still wonder why people dislike this episode so much. They can never really give me a good reason, they just seem to latch onto things they dislike, without ever thinking about the story that it's trying to present.
I never got any impression that this was a cheap attempt to repeat Measure of a Man, but rather that it was simply another big step in Data's character progression. I never found the Exocomps utterly unbelievable, as they showed signs of actual intelligence beyond that of mere farm animals, and the entire point of the series is "to seek out new life", so of course it becomes grey whether three unique creatures are worth the lives of Picard and Geordi, despite how much we personally like them. Every argument against this episode seems to be judging it harshly for the wrong reasons, rather than what the story was really about - Data.
So frankly I'm baffled at the lengths to which people go to rationalize their dislike of this episode. It's imperfect, but every Trek episode is imperfect. Boring? I'd hate to see what excites you if actual science fiction isn't exciting enough for you. Was Darmok too tedious? Or Measure of a Man too slow and contrived? Bizarre rationalizations abound.
- Sun, Mar 1, 2015, 11:24pm (USA Central)
Move Along Home
I'm one of the rare few who didn't hate this episode. I don't really think it deserves all the vitriol it gets, but of course in comparison to season 4 and onwards, it does get short-shrifted. Still, like one of the previois posters mentioned, it's meant to be a silly episode, and we're not supposed to be taking it seriously.
Someone also mentioned that it was like VOY's 'The Thaw'. In this case, I think VOY executed it much better. Of course, that might have been because in VOY, there was a very real danger of actually dying, but I think VOY nailed the suspenseful, eerie atmosphere much better than 'Move Along Home' did. Then again, clowns are always creepy, but instead we get the Wadi with their Legolas hairstyles here.
Dave in NC
- Sun, Mar 1, 2015, 11:10pm (USA Central)
The Nth Degree
What precisely did I say in my post that isn't factual? I await your answer with bated breath.
- Sun, Mar 1, 2015, 11:02pm (USA Central)
Tacking into the Wind
Rusot makes it racial. A *Bajoran* is inferior to and worth less than a Cardassian, in his eyes. It's a sentiment Rusot has lived by. It's a sentiment Dukat and Damar have lived by (though Damar is starting to open his eyes to a different perspective).
I'm not entirely sure that Damar started out being racist towards Bajorans, since he was extremely polite and even friendly to both the half-Bajoran Ziyal and Kira when he first met them, on the Groumall in 'Return to Grace.' He banters amicably with Kira about the condition of the Klingon ship, and takes all her orders on board. Can you imagine how Rusot would reacted if Kira had tried ordering him around the bridge or finishing his sentences?
Also, Ziyal mentions that the reason she's on the Groumall with her father is because she was ostracized on Cardassia: 'There were some Cardassians who could see past the Bajoran ridges on my nose, but not many.' Given how quickly Damar volunteered to help her in the engineering room, and how he showed her the 'knife trick', I think it's acceptable to say he was one of the people who 'saw through her nose ridges.' I can't ascribe that to a desire to please Dukat, since he doesn't come across as the type to suck up.
In any case, his later enmity to both Kira and Ziyal in 'Favour the Bold' is in direct contradiction to the happenings in 'Return to Grace.' One can only surmise that, during his and Dukat's yearlong guerrilla stint against the Klingons, Dukat must have completely brainwashed him into an 'Idolise Dukat' mode, hence his change.
- Sun, Mar 1, 2015, 10:20pm (USA Central)
What You Leave Behind
(PS - Sorry for not separating the paragraphs above, I'd written it on Word and copied and pasted. Hope no one's eyes are imploding.)
- Sun, Mar 1, 2015, 10:19pm (USA Central)
What You Leave Behind
@NCC-1701-Z: I completely agree. Considering how they built up his character and drew us into his story arc, if they'd gone with their 'original' script it would have been even worse, considering how unsatisfied most people are with the final product.
@Josh: The comparison with Boromir made me laugh, and I agree that we don't want anything that dramatic - especially given the fact that Damar isn't supposed to be a person who gives grandiose, moving speeches. A scene where Kira or Garak acknowledge his death after the war might have been nice, though, since by the happenings of the last episode the three of them had grown to be somewhat fond of each other. Kira leaning upon Garak's chest and laughingly suggesting they knock on the door to Dominion headquarters really wasn't something I'd expected to see.
@Dreamer: I read another interview with Avery Brooks (can't find the link again, sorry) and he mentioned that he too was displeased at how his and Jake's relationship was unresolved. Apparently the writers hadn't even planned the final scene with Kasidy, but Brooks felt that the connotations of a married man leaving behind his widow and unborn child were unacceptable, which is why the writers eventually went with the King Arthur "I will be back in your hour of greatest need" ending.
I love how this board is still going strong and inspiring such stimulating discussion, sixteen years after the series ended.
- Sun, Mar 1, 2015, 8:00pm (USA Central)
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
This movie just gained an extra shot of emotional resonance with Nimoy's passing...
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