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Dave
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 4:43pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Author, Author

If the Federation is capable of subjecting the holograms to work in the mines, then maybe it isn't the best idea to let them get their hands on the mobile emitter technology when Voyager get home.
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N
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 4:41pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

Yeah, I'm done too.
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Jammer
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 3:40pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

No one will win this argument. At a certain point, and that point has passed, everyone just digs in and talks past each other. The best solution is to just call it done and move on.
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Peter G.
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 3:20pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

@ Jason R,

I'll take up this point in particular:

"To address your last point, you have yet to respond to the fact that his "content and tone" in discussing Kira was more or less the same as it was when discussing Nog."

It's unclear whether there is common ground or not between the dislike of them based on what's been said so far. Let's put aside the comments in this thread for the moment and hypothetically suppose someone said that Kira was an emotionally silly woman and should die for it. We might suspect sexism/misogyny, although this is only one data point. Then suppose that same person announces that a man in the same series is pathetic because he's wimpy or maybe emotionally annoying in the same way. While you might take this to mean that since both male and female characters are being disparaged there is therefore no ground to suppose sexism/misogyny, you could be missing that the common ground between both of them is a patriarchal stereotype of how people in general are supposed to be. But if this were so it not only might the view regarding the female character still be sexist, but actually it would mean that it is sexist and that additionally there is another 'ism' at play at the same time being directed as the male character not fitting the chauvinist expectation. You might then categorize both under the general heading of "male supremacist", of which "sexist/misogynist" would be a subset but not distinct from.

I make this hypothetical so that no one here is dragged into this speculation, but my point is that if a patriarchal stereotype is being applied to a female character it doesn't contradict this to also apply that same patriarchal stereotype to a male character. Part of feminist theory is that both men and women are subjected to these overbearing stereotypes, and even though typically this kind of chauvinistic expectation is expressed as being 'sexist' it does not preclude men from being disparaged on the same ground.

In the context of this discussion I therefore don't see disparaging Nog as being particularly germane to undermining a suspicion that a particular view (or way of expressing it) is sexist/misogynist. I agree with you about civility, and also about the fact that there is data lacking here; and even that part of the issue here is probably style. However I don't know that maintaining civility must necessarily involve enforced silence when something actually objectionable is said. Name calling isn't the best way to address these things, but does that mean the content of the objection needs to be dismissed along with the tone?
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Del_Duio
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 2:56pm (UTC -6)
Re: Star Trek: Discovery

So first it's supposed to air this month.

Then it gets pushed back to May, but the filming starts in Sept 2016.

But when Sept rolls around, they haven't even cast anybody yet, so it gets pushed back again.

And well, etc etc then it was definitely shooting like what 2 weeks ago and now it's not until a bit later (Suuuuuuure)

And, well.. SAREK? Whyyy? I'd rather see a bunch of brand new people than re-treads at this point with this doomed series. I don't want them to bring back old characters for the sole reason I'd hate to see Mark Lenard's awesome legacy get pooped on.

Omni is right on this: CBS has totally screwed this up. This whole thing should've been so friggin' awesome and handled by people who realize just how special this franchise is (and could be again). You won't get another shot at a 50th anniversary again. Hell, the convention rounds in 2014 made WAY more stops than this year did. How is that even possible?

The last thing I want STD.. (yeah, it's STD because it sounds awful and it lingers on and on in production hell haha).. the last thing I want my awesome Trek to do is friggin' flat out DIE from it. Holy shit, guys. Do they realize how many people would jump at the chance to HANDLE THIS RIGHT?

Sorry, haha oh boy went on a ranter there, but at least we friggin' CARE about this sorta' thing.
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Jason R.
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 2:04pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

N Kira and Nog are fictional characters, whereas DLPB is a real person, albeit an anonymous one. There is no question of "civility" towards a character in a TV show so your comparison is specious.

I didn't argue with DLPB because there was nothing to argue about. I don't agree with him but I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince someone that a fictional character I like isn't s "worthless pile of dung"

To address your last point, you have yet to respond to the fact that his "content and tone" in discussing Kira was more or less the same as it was when discussing Nog.

If I walk up to a black man and call him a demon, you might speculate that I'm a racist. If 5 minutes later I walk up to a white man and call him the same thing, the initial speculation becomes increasingly less likely.

I see people post like DLPB all the time re: male characters. It's probably just his style.

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N
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:51pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

And I agree with Chrome's comment.
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N
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:49pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

I'd love people to be more civil with each other too, which is why I literately took someone to task for wishing a pregnant character had been murdered and calling Nog "a worthless pile of dung". But apparently my using the word "misogyny" is more uncivil than that, given it's me you're insistently attacking and not DLPB. So it's fine for him to do that, but not for me to make an observation about it - the accusation of the thing is worse than the actual thing? That seems like a really handy way to shut down any discussion of an issue.

"You leaped to the conclusion that he hates Kira because she is a woman" - no, I characterised his comments as misogynistic because of the specific context and framework that Peter describes above. I've repeatedly explained why I chose the words I did in nuance and detail, Peter has also explained eloquently (without wishing to draw him into this), yet you reduce this to "flat out insulting people and name calling" - so again, me characterising a comment as "misogynist" is apparently worse than someone using wishing a female character had been murdered for being overemotional/irrational (sexist tropes).

The emotional/irrational comment on its own wouldn't have made me say anything and isn't grounds enough for me to accuse someone of sexism - the combination of it with the death wish and the overall context of the comment (and the vitriolic tone) is. If someone had said, for instance, "I wish Janeway had stayed assimilated at the end of UMZ Part II" or "I'm glad Tasha died, she was annoying", I wouldn't have made any comment about sexism/misogyny (take your pick) because there's no evidence gender had anything to do with it. As you correctly state, it's obviously perfectly possible to dislike a female character without being sexist. I think T'Pol is a really bad character. I said what I did because of the specific content and tone of DLPB's comment.
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SteveRage
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:35pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S5: Conundrum

Anyone else notice that thanks to this episode, Riker has now slept with Troi, Crusher & Ro..... along with multiple other planetary dignitaries and lower ranking crew members..... and I'm pretty sure that in a few episodes time he sleeps with someone from a culture that doesn't even have a concept of sex or gender :-)
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Yanks
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 12:53pm (UTC -6)
Re: Star Trek: Discovery

Thanks. My hopes are starting to dim....
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Sean
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 12:42pm (UTC -6)
Re: ENT S4: These Are the Voyages...

Star Trek for me will always be TOS, TNG, and those six movies with Kirk and crew. I've seen every other incarnation of Trek - and while each had moments worth watching, none of it felt memoable. That might be a bit harsh, but it's how I feel. Sorry Mr. Berman.
This episode would have been better if it had actually been about the Enterprise crew, and not about Riker. For some reason Berman believed this would be the end of all Star Trek - was he wrong...
By the way, did we ever learn who was sending messages from the future?
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Jason R.
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 12:34pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

N the fact that she was pregnant is superfluous to this argument.

He flippantly said he wishes a female character he doesn't like would be killed off. Then he made a similar comment about a male character.

Lots of people write nasty comments about fictional characters they hate, against both sexes.

You leaped to the conclusion that he hates Kira because she is a woman, and then leapt passed the conclusion that he's sexist to the conclusion that he is misogynist (hates women categorically) despite having additional evidence that he expresses similar hatred of male characters.

It's not "semantics". You're just flat out insulting people and name calling with no basis in fact.

I want you to see this and understand why I'm criticizing you. I want people to be more civil with one another and part of that is taking responsibility for the words we choose.
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Chrome
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 12:30pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

Kira's temper flaring up and going on a half-cocked vigilante mission is completely consistent with her character. Actually, I always admired how relatively restrained Kira was as her friends were killed off one by one. If this were Season 1 Kira (or maybe just non-pregnant Kira), I'm sure she would've gone hunting for the assassin much sooner.

Now one may not like Kira's character because of her fiery temper, but do keep in mind this character flaw was given *intentionally* by the writers to show how much the Cardassian Occupation wounded her. Ensign Ro, the character upon which Kira based on, basically had the same flaw, one you can very much see in her TNG outings.
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N
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 12:11pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

Peter - precisely, thank you.

Jason - a commenter basically comes out and says 'I wish the assassin had killed the pregnant woman', an extreme and unpleasant reaction to this episode by any count, yet I'm the one who's "bigoted" for calling this misogyny? Without the killing comment, if he'd left it at just the "irrational" and "could never control her emotions" comments, I'd have said sexism. But combining the irrational/overemotional comments with the comment saying the episode would have been better if the assassin had killed her upgrades it to misogyny in my book, if you're insistent on playing this semantic game with me.
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Jason R.
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 12:08pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

Peter, since the poster went on to employ similar language to describe Nog, a male character, I think it more likely that it's just his style to make excessive comments about characters he doesn't like, as opposed to singling out female characters for abuse. If you have evidence that this poster has a pattern of denigrating female characters then that may change things.

Incidentally, I didn't claim the comments were not sexist, but in my view even the evidence for that is lacking, let alone for misogyny.
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Peter G.
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 11:56am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

@ Jason R.

Just to play devil's advocate, I think the argument N was trying to make isn't that disparaging Kira makes someone a misogynist in and of itself, nor was it that her particular faults are also the faults of all women. Rather I think the crux of the argument was to suggest that DLPB is using criteria for judging Kira in particular that are quintessentially patriarchal criteria whose employment is based less on objective virtue and more on 'virtues' traditionally held to be male traits, such as emotional control, cold reason, and so forth. By describing her in a negative light on the grounds that she possesses traits traditionally associated with females, one would be by inference perpetuating the sexist double standard of women being assessed based on criteria important to men. Or, put differently, "she's stupid because she doesn't act like a man."

I also think N was reacting to the hyperbole suggesting she should die for being so "stupid" in this sense, which I think is where what might have been a suggestion of sexism instead might suggest misogyny. "She should die for being so emotional" doesn't sound like merely a mistaken bias against one sex. Even if it's just a joke, it's still a misogyny joke.

I'm not taking sides in this, but I don't think you fairly characterized what N was trying to say.
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Saiber
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 11:41am (UTC -6)
Re: ENT S2: A Night in Sickbay

Oh my goodness. This is the most awful episode of a Star Trek show I have ever seen. How on earth did this Archer get his rank of captain and commanding the first star ship in earth history to explore space and make first contact with other races? He is irrational, childish and irresponsible. Acting like a spoiled diva. Risking the life of his crew and his ship over his dog? Not to mention ruining contact and relationship with other races and cultures. The most incompetent captain ever command a ship and I am not talking about fictious science fiction shows. Even in our time such a captain of any ship would have been reliefed of command long time ago by his sub officers. Or would have faced a mutiny on board. The writers must had hated this show so much that they sabotaged it from the very first minute of this show. Very disappointing as this show had so much potential!
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methane
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 11:31am (UTC -6)
Re: Star Trek: Discovery

According to CBS' statement a few days ago, it's starting production next week. They're just not fixing an official release date.
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Jason R.
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 11:25am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

"DLPB's specific dismissal of Kira as "irrational" and "could never control her emotions" (on top of "One thing could have saved this episode... Kira being killed by the assassin") is bathed in misogyny and uses the exact same tropes with which women have been delegitimized for decades/centuries - ie. They're emotional. They're irrational. "

Point one: you inferred that his comments pertaining to Kira must be indicative of an attitude against all women. In that inference you were engaging in motive speculation, a type of ad hominem attack. There is no such evidence that his views of Kirabcan be expanded to all women.

It is possible to think a female character is irrational and hysterical without believing all women are so.

Point two: even if someone genuinely thinks all women are irrational, this does not prove misogyny. Misogyny is defined as hatred of women, or a contempt of women so strong that it borders on hate.

Marc Lepine, the infamous Ecole Polytechnique shooter was probably a misogynist. The "nice guy" who can't get a date but rants and raves about the evils of "women today" and how they only want a-holes and not "nice guys" is probably a misogynist. The author of Malleus Maleficarum, the witch hunter's handbook, was probably a misogynist.

Your uncle Larry who thinks wonen are too emotional and are bad drivers isn't a misogynist - he's a sexist. Or if he is a misogynist, that prejudice is not what makes him so.

I find the word "sexism" adequate to describe garden variety male chauvinism and prejudice against women. I do not see any purpose in watering down and trivializing "misogyny" by applying the label to every prejudice aimed at women and supplanting the the well understood concept of sexism.

Moreover, claiming that someone is a misogynist is a very strong claim - like calling that person a bigot or a racist. You make such allegations, don't be surprised at the blowback.

Many people these days rail against "hate" and "vitriol" but seem blind to how their own choice of words feeds into this toxic cycle.
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Brandon Adams
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 10:47am (UTC -6)
Re: Star Trek: Discovery

No date offered.

I think we're officially in development hell.

I figured out a while ago that all this "subscription lets us do graphic stuff we couldn't on networks!" and "sci-fi sucks on networks!" is really just studio-code for "we're going to have a gay character and he's going to be kissing men". I wonder if that was a source of conflict between the various parties.

But between them putting it behind a paywall and the Axanar studio, I can tell you I have no intention of supporting Discovery. Moonves is just putting forth a token doomed effort so he can go "See? Nobody wants it!" and dodge further criticism.
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JohnC
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 10:33am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S1: The Cloud

I too gave a virtual fist-bump to Neelix after his rant about Voyager constantly looking for trouble in every random nebula or whatever. I understand that they are still carrying out their exploratory mission, and I understand that they are looking for a way home, but it would be nice if there was at least some kind of risk-assessment protocol before they go wandering off opening every closed door in the Delta quadrant.

Very much agree with most of the last comment from Trek Fan. First, 3 "temporal anomaly" episodes. They finally turn away from that hackneyed plot contrivance -- right into "holodeck hijinks". -sigh-. I realize these concepts provide many opportunities for writers, but they already seem to be employed as a bit of a crutch. This was a very thin episode, saved only by some interesting interaction between the characters as they get to know each other. Janeway's obsession with coffee - I can relate. :)
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JohnC
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 10:22am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S1: Phage

I have to agree with some of the commenters - Janeway's going to let an organ-thief go scot-free after a violent assault that leaves the victim immobile for the rest of his life? Ummmm, no.

It seems Janeway is bound and determined to default to decisions that cause hardship to those she has charge of in favor of strangers to whom she owes no duty. First, she destroys the only means for the Voyager crew to get home. Neelix is one of the only two people on board who want to be on that ship at that place in time, and two episodes later she's ready to let two ghouls harvest his lungs and keep him in immobile isolation for the rest of his life. If I was Kes, I'd be watching my back to see how Janeway's going to try to sell me down the river.....

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DG54321
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 9:39am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S4: Living Witness

Only real nitpicks I had with this episode were the lack of communication with Starfleet, or even knowing they were in the Delta Quadrant 700 years later, and the ability to get the look and function of not only the ship but the specific tools needed to fix a tricorder, but not the story itself, correct.

After 7 centuries, it's inconceivable that Starfleet hadn't developed quantum slipstream or transwarp drive of their own (especially with Borg help, and they were testing such things during Voyager's time in the Delta Quadrant, 700 years earlier), and someone from Starfleet could have helped resolve the diplomatic fiasco that is their inaccurate portrayal of history. The only answer that makes any sense is that somehow, Starfleet and the Federation either don't exist any longer as a major power with the goals of exploration and diplomacy, either being wiped out, or becoming isolationist. We know that even in the 29th century, the Federation and Starfleet are very much intact.
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N
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 8:51am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Darkness and the Light

Well, the story of Nog is the story of growth, and how when you have a great writing team that cares about developing its characters (both supporting and regular) and recognizes when a young cast member is able and willing to handle more sophisticated material, a character that started life as a one-note sidekick can be developed and nurtured in a way that embodies and reflects the whole arc of the show. Nog's story is about the Federation's "soft power" and the attractiveness of its value framework to those from more restrictive societies - about how a simple act of intercultural communication and kindness (Jake befriending him and teaching him to read) can open up whole new horizons for someone and allow them to forge their own way and make a success of their life on their own terms, maturing and changing in the process, instead of being trapped by the expectations of a culture whose values aren't a good match for them. It's also, like Kira's arc, about coming to terms with trauma and being thrust into the unpleasant reality of conflict as a young person. But what do I know, maybe he's a "worthless pile of dung" and she's "grossly unrealistic"...
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Yanks
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 8:49am (UTC -6)
Re: Star Trek: Discovery

Our current cast:

Sonequa Martin-Green (Lieutenant Commander Rainsford)
Michelle Yeoh (Captain Georgiou of the U.S.S. Shenzhou)
Anthony Rapp (Lt. Stamets)
Doug Jones (Lt. Saru)
Chris Obi (T’Kuvma)
Shazad Latif (Kol)
Mary Chieffo (L’Rell)
James Frain (Sarak)

I've read a couple places where the series has been pushed to the right.... has anyone seen a date?
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