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- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 7:56pm (USA Central)
Harry blamed himself for the crew getting killed. He became obsessed about getting the crew home. It never occurred to Harry to simply to keep the crew from crashing Voyager into that ice planet.
The only reason Harry's and Chakotay's mission was successful was because the Doctor told Harry to try to send a message to Seven that would save the crew, even though it would not get the crew home. At that time, Harry was having a nervous breakdown, his attempt to get the crew home having failed.
So basically, Harry tried for the whole hog (crew home), failed, then (on the Doctor's advice) sent a last second message to Seven to cause her to inadvertently shutdown the slipstream drive and thereby save the crew.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 4:28pm (USA Central)
Flesh and Blood
I think Voyager really found its stride in S5--most of the episodes in that season were good to great and most of the characterisations were very strong. It managed to be fun, thoughtful and engaging. The next step, logically was what they tried in S7, but they waited too long and rode the fumes during S6, meaning that there wasn't really enough time when they finally did start arcing to do it properly. That's why, from a S7-perspective, the series feels shortchanged. In this way, it's a lot like Enterprise's 4th season. They were in their fourth year, but when they finally started doing the show right, there wasn't enough time left.
DS9 could have condensed its 6th and 7th seasons. There was of course necessary closure in S7, but most of the characterisations were whacky, the Dukay/Winn arc was laughable and the war got tedious. S6 had some real high points, but close to half of it was waisted air time. They could have made one strong season with what they had, maybe throw in a Jake episode to give his character some closure and be better for it. As it stands, DS9 S7 feels like a tremendous nose-dive. They never got better than S4 on that series.
Dave in NC
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 4:21pm (USA Central)
Ship in a Bottle
Grumpy: "Or something more deep-rooted, like revulsion at his own cyborg heart."
I know the writers weren't clever enough to think of such a thing, but your insight would be great to base an episode on!
I can only shake my head at the producers who said they ran out of good story ideas in Season 7 . . .
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 4:04pm (USA Central)
Flesh and Blood
Oh, and regarding one less season, I do really enjoy DS9's season seven. I would agree that it could have done with one less season if all of the seasons were pushed back and there were less alien of the week episodes when DS9 was trying to be TNG on a space station in seasons 1-3. That's not to say all episodes of those seasons were bad, just that the seasons after 3 tended to have very few bad episodes, usually just a ferengi episode here or there.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 3:18pm (USA Central)
Flesh and Blood
@Elliott: I do appreciate that they were doing something like Harry Kim finally getting some development, but it really was, as Jammer said, too little too late. This was something they should have done a long time ago in season 1 or 2. That episode only served as a reminder of how little the characters actually change.
In the same way, I do appreciate them trying something different, but too little too late can apply to most of season 7. As I'm sure you agree. They decided a long time ago that Voyager was going to be an episodic schlocky action show, and so they stuck with it. It was only in season 7 when they reversed course and decided to do some character development, it really was far too late.
Which is why I feel bad for Enterprise, because Enterprise is a copy of Voyager it was already too late for it to be good before it started.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 2:52pm (USA Central)
"Yes, the damage to Miles' career (if there were going to be any) was already done, but Sisko had the option to follow his duty in letter AND substance. He chose to put on a show which directly resulted in Tosk's escape."
Totally agree! I guess I just mean that he didn't have a chance to undo all damage that O'Brien caused, whereas Janeway did manage to stop Tom entirely.
I can see why you think it was cowardly... and perhaps it was. But I guess I felt that because the hunt had already resumed that to re-capture Tosk Sisko would be intervening again. Doing what he did was the easy way out, but I don't think it shades him so poorly. But I can see how you might take that away from it.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 2:33pm (USA Central)
Rewatch the end of the episode: Odo very easily could have caught O'Brien and Tosk. Yes, the damage to Miles' career (if there were going to be any) was already done, but Sisko had the option to follow his duty in letter AND substance. He chose to put on a show which directly resulted in Tosk's escape. No amount of sophistry can diffuse this. It is the POINT of the scene. It is meant to shade Sisko's character. My problem is that it doesn't shade it in a good way; while on the surface it appears to be a "tough choice" Sisko makes on the frontier, with a little thought, one sees it's really a demonstration of his moral cowardice.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 2:23pm (USA Central)
The Die Is Cast
Wow, some of the criticism here is baffling.
Admiral Toddman's order to Sisko is absolutely plausible and SMART! The Defiant's presence at the wrong time in this conflict would/could directly get the Federation involved. That's the last thing anyone wants.
About Sisko defying orders... he just didn't blow the ADM off. He had a plan, and a pretty reasonable plan to defend Bajor. ... and the ADM never specifically told him not to venture into the GQ. (he probably should have, that's the mistake I see)
"SISKO: I am not going to just abandon one of my officers. Toddman's concerned about the defense of Bajor, and so am I. If we detect a Jem'Hadar strike force heading for the Alpha Quadrant, we'll use the communications relay to warn DS Nine, and we'll do everything we can to stop them before they reach the wormhole. I consider this a volunteer mission, but don't volunteer yet. There's a good chance you won't be coming back from this mission. And even if you do, you'll probably be facing a general court martial. If you do decide to go, be aboard the Defiant at fifteen thirty hours. Dismissed."
That and he made it a volunteer mission!
Kirk and Picard have done much worse when it comes to "following orders". ... and they didn't leave their officers behind either.
The only real issue I see with this episode is that the Jem'Hadar attack the shuttle with Odo on it. It was given to Odo/Garak by a Founder, I find it hard to believe that Founder didn't make it very clear not to shoot the one with Odo on it.
The interrogation scene with Odo and Garak was a trek classic. Odo's smugness to Garak, not fearing torture to Garak pleading with Odo to give him something was epic to say the least… intense and dramatic.
As to why Garak didn't reveal what he'd found out to Tain? ... or he felt bad for his friend (we know that's true) ... or what he did find out had no bearing on the plan ... or maybe he didn't want to tell Tain that Odo just wanted to return to his people because he didn't want that to sound like a plea for Garak's desire to return home ... pick one.
As soon as Sisko knew Eddingon was acting on Toddman's orders his tune changed ... think about it. All good stuff, well written.
One of the best 2-parters in all of Trek and definitely the best so far in DS9.
Just LOVED the mirror scene at the end between Odo and Garak.
"GARAK: Do you know what the sad part is, Odo? I'm a very good tailor."
Wow, just wow.
5 out of 4 stars.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 1:58pm (USA Central)
As for Janeway and the Moneans... that's actually the perfect way to explain the difference. She stopped him BEFORE he blew the thing up. All he got away with was stealing a shuttle, which I mean... on Voyager isn't even that much of an accomplishment.
I'm pretty sure Naomi managed to steal a shuttle off screen at some point before she was 1....
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 1:56pm (USA Central)
"2) Your daughter decides to sneak out and accidentally wakes you up in the process. Seeing her out your bedroom window, you decide to let her go, but then follow her in your car to retrieve her later."
Simply not true. This implies I caught her before she could implement her plan. Granted, it's been awhile since I've seen the episode but I'm pretty sure O'Brien overloaded the scanners or whatever, assaulting the Hunters and freeing Tosk before Sisko figured it out. Sisko could have re-captured Tosk, but O'Brien's plan was already pretty much over. Yes, Sisko could have caught O'Brien 75% of the way into it, but the damage was already done. He already freed the prisoner and assaulted a first contact.....
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 1:42pm (USA Central)
Ship in a Bottle
Dave in NC: "...I like to think it was because Picard had a distaste for AI after his experience with the Borg."
Or something more deep-rooted, like revulsion at his own cyborg heart. But probably not; Picard probably took his prosthesis for granted, just like the writers, who usually forgot it was there, whirring in his chest for 7 seasons and 4 movies.
Wherever the prejudice comes from, it wasn't operative when Picard chose Data to join his crew, despite the captain's frequent confusion and annoyance aimed at his 2nd officer. The show's anti-post-human stance didn't emerge until after Roddenberry decided to graft his Questor concepts onto the TNG cast.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 1:05pm (USA Central)
Wow! It amazes me that the same folks that can give us the ‘mirror’ crap can turn right around and give us this tremendous effort.
Note to DS9 writers.... if you want to make an episode a classic, give Garak more lines.
Just a fantastic episode and I believe this is DS9 at its best.
I'm so glad I didn't need to wait a week when I first saw this. Thank god for DVD's.
Jammer, it's easy to make a good preview of a great episode. :-)
EASY 4 stars from me, 5 if I could.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 12:57pm (USA Central)
Troi's empathic ability was not showcased enough (in frequency and in depth) for us to really understand what she was missing
How do you propose we understand something that has never happened, and will probably never happen? And something we have never experienced. You can't understand qualia if you don't experience it. No matter how "well explained" it is. You also can't go into depth about something that is absolute fiction.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 12:53pm (USA Central)
Through the Looking Glass
Eeesh, how do mirror episodes go from the quality of 'Mirror, mirror' in TOS to this... (slaps forehead)
All these episodes do is allow cast members that normally wouldn't f#$%#$k each other to do so.
Quarkissnyder, I had the same thoughts watching this one.
Just horrible, and most of the acting is just.... well bad.
The intendant is inept, Bashir's acting is not watchable...
Well, we did get Tuvok though.
So 1 star for Tuvok.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 12:37pm (USA Central)
This episode stinks because Alexander Siddig's acting is horrible and the aging make-up isn't much better.
Interesting concept that most likely would have been pulled off by someone like Garak.
Always a skipper for me.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 12:31pm (USA Central)
This episode gives me a headache. While I normally enjoy "Obrien" episodes, the technobabble is so hard to follow I normally fall asleep.
Major reset crap here as we know DS9 isn't going to get blown up; therefore there is no sense of urgency.
The DS9 blow up did look pretty good though, especially for a TV show.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 12:31pm (USA Central)
Some good parts to this episode, in interactions between characters. But man is Trek science a load of nonsense. Who is the idiot they hired as a science adviser? Or did they just not bother? It's like high school standard.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 12:29pm (USA Central)
Your analogy is flawed in a couple of key ways:
1) You didn't discover your daughter had broken the rules until after it was too late.
2) You and your wife presumably made a decision together, she's not your boss. If you choose to bend the agreement you made together, the implications for your relationship are very different.
The way the episode presents this scenario, the analogy would go like this :
1) You and your wife have a standing agreement that your daughter must not go to parties, even though you maybe think sometimes she should.
2) Your daughter decides to sneak out and accidentally wakes you up in the process. Seeing her out your bedroom window, you decide to let her go, but then follow her in your car to retrieve her later.
3) You tell your wife that she snuck out and you went after her immediately, but the damage was done.
O'Brien expected Sisko to stop him and Sisko COULD have stopped him. That's the point. Compare this to Janeway and Paris from "30 Days"; Janeway most definitely agreed with Paris' position, but went so far as to nearly destroy his vessel in order to protect the Moneans. Now, Janeway was perfectly happy to violate the PD or other regulations when she decided it was right, but she never went in half-assed, giving lip-service to playing by the rules but actually circumventing them to save face.
If Sisko were going to let O'Brien get away with his plan, then fine, LET HIM! Tell Odo to stay put, and submit both O'Brien and himself for punishment to Starfleet afterwards. That would be honourable. Or, have Odo earnestly try and prevent Tosk from escaping, in spite of his personal feelings (à la Janeway). That too would be honourable.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 12:23pm (USA Central)
Below average episode that except for jotting these reviews is a skipper for me.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 12:21pm (USA Central)
This episode is DS9's way of slamming religion without slamming it. The prophecy was true without being true. It all depends on your viewpoint; which is as much true for the religious as the militant atheists in practice.
Brilliantly conceived and executed episode.
I enjoy this one each time I watch it.
3.5 stars for me.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 12:15pm (USA Central)
Flesh and Blood
@Sean: I actually concede that point entirely. All the Trek spinoffs could have benefited from about 1 less season in their runs (unless they were going to add something worthwhile to the mix). You see S7 as fan-trolling, which is kind of odd, I see it as them trying something new with the final season. In that context, S7 was too late for them to start this off if they weren't getting an eighth season (which they knew they weren't). It should have started at S6. Stretching this episode into three parts would have made time to show Iden's transition properly.
Dave in NC
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 11:34am (USA Central)
Ship in a Bottle
That's actually a pretty good point!
It seems that Captain Picard has a bias against artificial life forms .... it also doesn't occur to him Data deserves a command position in "Redemption Part II", and he assumes that the Exocomps aren't alive after a few simple tests. It probably was NOT intentional on the writer's part, but I like to think it was because Picard had a distaste for AI after his experience with the Borg.
I wonder if anyone thought of Moriarty and the Countess when the Federation extended full rights to sentient photonic life forms.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 9:17am (USA Central)
What You Leave Behind
Agreed with most of these comments. The finale was weak. Many of the characters seemed to be out of character. Key discrepancies:
1) Sisko. His relationship with Jake was repeatedly emphasised to be very strong throughout the series. Yet he simply waltzed off without even saying goodbye. No way.
2) Odo. Supposed to be incorruptible. His sense of justice was supposed to be paramount. Yet he casually, willingly, easily broke his promise not to pass the cure to the Dominion. And Kira was supposed to be the biggest thing in his life. Yet he just tossed her away at the end.
3) Jadzia. Biggest love of Worf's life, but not even in his memories. Big studio fail on this.
4) Dukat. Over the course of several episodes they turned a brilliant, complex villain into a cartoon Evil Man whose primary drive to destroy the entire quadrant (universe?) was petty revenge over one man. Ridiculous.
5) Gowron's fall. If becoming Chancellor had been that easy, Gowron would have been stabbed long ago-- he isn't all that strong or big or powerful.
There are others, but I have to go eat lunch now. Later.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 9:09am (USA Central)
Well, this episode is a good one but not a great one.
Of course, Odo is center stage here which normally is good, but I'm not sure why he struggled to maintain his shape when it was so stressful. Damn, just pour yourself into a bucket and let Sisko & company find the Founders.
Quark's little "nod" to Odo was expected.
His walk down the promenade was pointless. I saw it coming when Bashir said that medical was ready but it'll take a little while to get Odo on board.
But.... Odo insisting he will be judged is a big feather in the cap for the character. I would have not expected anything less from Odo and probably would have just dismissed the character all together had he copped out of it somehow.
Very interesting the exchange between Garak and the lead Founder.
"FOUNDER: They're dead. You're dead, Cardassia is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us. I believe that answers your question." Damn, how’s that for a direct answer to someone who is never direct?
Then you can see the wheels turning in Garak's head...
"GARAK: It was a pleasure meeting you."
I just knew something was coming... and it's hard to argue with his reasoning here either. BUT... I'm sure the Founders had anticipated something like that...
But a note on the Founder's wanting the Cardassians dead.
#1. What about the Romulans?
#2. I don't believe the Jem'Hadar have attacked Cardassia, have they? I know they like to influence rather than act directly, but the Jem'Hadar are expendable and quickly replaceable, the Klingons have already taken a huge bite out of the Cardassians... seems they could finish them off pretty easily.
I don't think we can assume that if the changeling that Odo killed was successful - that meant as an absolute that Odo would have been killed. Remember Odo was spared when Tain & company attacked the Founder's home world. They seem to take into account contingencies like that.
I never thought that Odo's change to a solid was permanent.
It's interesting that the Founders used Odo to further their agenda, letting him believe Gowron was a changeling.
Another season ender that has Odo making a statement about the Founders. Ho-hum…
2.5 for me. Just average.
- Fri, Aug 1, 2014, 9:06am (USA Central)
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
Jack, the point about Alameda: the time frame is more than long enough for the city'so circumstances to completely change. It might well have been destroyed (perhaps in one of the two cataclysmic wars Earth is due for in that span). It could easily have been depopulated, and/or renamed. Any number of things could quite reasonably have happened in the intervening centuries. For the characters to know of it would be an odder note than if they did not. (I wouldn'the bet on the long-term survival of thirsty Phoenix either.)
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