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- Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 2:39am (USA Central)
You Are Cordially Invited
I feel like the only reason Jadzia got with Worf was because he is klingon. It always annoyed me how Jadzia seemed to want to be a klingon. Just because Curon worked with Klingons she knows all their rituals, songs and beliefs. I never felt any chemistry between them. I was glad they killed her when she quit the show. I know she offered to do part time work the last season but I'm sure the writers felt like if she was gonna leave them with one season left then Jadzia had to die. Ha. And what's with worf thinking she will be in stovokor. She isn't klingon and shouldn't his woman from tng be waiting for him.
- Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 1:59am (USA Central)
Once More Unto the Breach
Those are all good points William. It does seem that both Quark and Bashir saw Ezri as a consolation prize or as some form of Jadzia. I just think it would have been cool to see Quark in a relationship. The show always made Quark into a typical ferengi who was all about profit. But he actually did care about some things above profit. I was always intrigued by how loyal he was to the Nagus. He would have done anything for that man. And he was willing to leave the station and his bar to be with Natima. I think that if Worf had never come on DS9 then Jadzia and Bashir would have gotten together. Maybe that's why they had Ezri and Bashir form a relationship. Now that women can wear clothes and earn profit they could have had Pel come back at the end of the series. That would have been interesting. Not enough time I guess.
I like your idea of Jake and Ezri. That would have been really awkward for Jake every time Sisko called his girlfriend "old man". Ha.
- Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 1:38am (USA Central)
I don't think that is particularly problematic and nowhere near the top of the list of this episode's biggest problems (though I kinda like its wackiness).
Still, you do raise an interesting point. The dualism many older religions and myths ascribe to the Sun and the Moon stem from the fact that the two celestial bodies appear to be of exactly the same size - the Sun's radius is some 400 times greater than the Moon's while it's 400 times farther out from Earth, effectively cancelling each other out where an observer standing on our planet is concerned. It really is a curious turn of events dictated by mere cosmic chance.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 11:44pm (USA Central)
"Ethics" - aka "Worf gets his spine crushed and Riker, Troi and Crusher give him shit for it for most of an episode."
While the whole Klingon honor thing gets to be a bit much in general, in this case it makes perfect sense to me a Klingon would have no interest in living with a severe physical disability. And thus it shouldn't be such a big surprise to Riker, either.
And Crusher mostly made sense, except that it made no sense she didn't want Worf to even hear about the experimental treatment - wouldn't it be her natural obligation to let him know?
I still liked the episode more than not - I just thought some of the character motivations served more to illustrate the extreme sides if the debate, rather than being so believable.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 11:18pm (USA Central)
Once More Unto the Breach
I would have been fine with a Quark/Jadzia pairing. However, I would mostly have a problem with Quark/Ezri for the same reason that I do have a problem with Julian/Ezri -- the sense that Ezri is some kind of cosmic consolation prize for the guy who pined after Jadzia. The story even explicitly points out this risk in having Worf and Ezri briefly get together before pointing out that this is wrong, because both of them are just transferring feelings from the Worf/Jadzia marriage onto the new Dax host. For Julian and Quark, who were still spending screentime pining for Jadzia the episode she died, to be interested in Ezri romantically is hard to accept as being above board, and related to Ezri herself and not just Jadzia. I suppose a story could organically arise out of this, with Ezri and Quark both careful to question whether this is all about Jadzia or not.
Once again though, this problem is specific to the idea of the dynamics around Dax switching hosts. NOT Quark himself; if Shimmerman is correct that "no one would accept Quark/Ezri," I object to that, since at least some people accepted Julian/Ezri and that has the same problems. I'd definitely be fine with a Quark romance, provided it's effectively portrayed etc.
In general, IF Ezri (the character) was to be on the show, and IF an Ezri romance needed to happen, it would have been best for it to be a character who hadn't been romantically attached to Jadzia, even if in an unrequited way like Bashir or Quark. Granted, this doesn't leave many in the cast, especially since Sisko, Odo, O'Brien were in relationships already (and Kira for that matter, though it's pretty clear the writers would never have gone there except maybe in a mirror universe episode as a gag). They could have done a Jake/Ezri romance -- which would have given Jake something to do and maybe created an interesting conflict for Ben, and create a scenario where Ben would have to seriously consider the ramifications of his son being an adult and his old friend now being so young. Actually this idea sounds pretty good....
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 9:37pm (USA Central)
Once More Unto the Breach
I have a question for all ds9/quark fans. Would it have been ok with you if Quark had ended up with ezri? I ask this because I was reading about this epiisode on memory alpha and it says this
Armin Shimerman sees this episode as setting up his character for the rest of the season; "For the most part, the season is about Quark either mourning Jadzia or pursuing Ezri. The audience would never accept them as a couple though, so there was never a chance for that. So I spent most of the season crying into my own drinks, woeing the fact that I was getting nowhere with Ezri. Although everybody else on the show seemed to get somewhere with her!"
I was always upset that Quark never ended up with anyone. I wouldn't have been upset with Quark and Ezri as a couple. They seemed to have some chemistry in the emperors cloak. I know that was an alternate universe episode but I could have seen them end up together. They were about the same height too. Ha I mean even rom got a woman and he was a side character. I look at the episode Rules of acquisition and the episode where quark loves the cardassian woman and I can definitely see quarks desire for a relationship. I don't agree with Armin when he says the audience would never accept that but would accept Bashir and ezri. Am I wrong? Is it better just have quark be alone running the bar forever?
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 9:32pm (USA Central)
"Harry is always talking about how much he wants to go home."
I haven't seen this one in a while. Did Harry even take the opportunity to visit his parents?
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 6:57pm (USA Central)
this episode was an insult to star trek. they build a wooden spaceship, so how does it get into space ffs?
worst episode EVER!
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 3:19pm (USA Central)
"...regarding that early '90s dude in the corridor - WTF? Was that an inside joke?"
Pretty sure the same extra, wearing a similar if not the same outfit, appears in a couple other episodes. Enough to have made an impression.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 2:39pm (USA Central)
Worth it to see Spiner do mean and angry. And no, it's not the same as Lore, it's another different performance from him.
Sirtis is indeed more convincing in this role than she was playing captain as Troi. Go figure.
And I'm with Phl regarding that early '90s dude in the corridor - WTF? Was that an inside joke?
Dave in NC
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 11:40am (USA Central)
Once could argue that the people DOING the drugs are more responsible for the damage caused than the lady sneaking them across the border. Saying someone needs to be "put to death" for drug smuggling is an extreme overreaction, especially regarding the case you are discussing.
By the way, this isn't really the place to grind your political axes, especially when you are arguing the pros of "death by firing squad".
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 11:34am (USA Central)
Eye of the Beholder
"It's not like Dan to take his own life,' is one of the more amusing comments in this episode.
Yeah, thanks. You know, Dan doesn't usually take his own life like that -- I'd say this is a first. "
Let's wait and see if he does it again.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 11:00am (USA Central)
Was Apollo really even near-omnipotent?
Extremely powerful, yes. But he didn't really have many powers that would qualify him for being even semi omnipotent. Did he?
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 10:51am (USA Central)
Has no one else considered their dubious use of the Masaka-Korgano relationship as an analogy of the Sun-Moon relationship?
The Sun-Moon relationship is only applicable on planets like Earth. Forcing some establishing piece that the place the comet comes from also happened to have 1 moon would be rather out of place.
I feel they ought to have used some more... applicable dichotomy.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 9:01am (USA Central)
I also thought it was fun how Crusher, Troi and Riker had some fun with Picard about his omissions early on, not thinking of how it would make Vash feel, without going too far, not intending to make Vash feel bad and still respecting that Picard had a right if not some benefits from being more reserved.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 8:57am (USA Central)
Entertaining in parts but some serious issues as others have mentioned.
Something else: As an Australian I find Kirk's comment about the British landing at Botany Bay - "Those men went on to tame a continent" - as dated at best. Such a western world mentality believing that a continent inhabited by a 40,000 year old culture needs taming. And then setting Kahn and his people on a world that hasn't asked for him tells us that colonialism is good; the locals are just savages that need to be taught how to live proper like.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 8:57am (USA Central)
This episode was good but mostly because of Stewart's acting. Otherwise there was too little doubt or misdirection about how Satie (just that she had been right about a past dangerous conspiracy and that as a child she enjoyed family table debates) or the episode would turn out; there was a bit that Tarses lying about being descended from a Romulan was portrayed as real bad but it was predictable (yet really rushed) that the crew would then feel bad about being suspicious. Picard and Taylor objecting to surveillance or duty-reassignment to someone under suspicion if not likely lying felt very extreme given the stakes involved.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 8:41am (USA Central)
I disagree, I thought that Vash and her relationship with Picard were much better portrayed then in "Captain's Holiday," Q was a very well-done mix of malevolence, reluctant debt-settling and eventually attraction to Vash and that Vash and Q ended up together was surprising but worked. The Robin Hood sequences were pretty perfunctory, aside from the climax, but the cast still had and somewhat were fun.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 7:32am (USA Central)
Dance of the Mayflies
MWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA! This would have made a great MST3K episode. And what's up with the Than? They were one of the first signers of the new Commonwealth Charter, and now they won't even explain what's happening before trying to blow up Andromeda? Are they still part of the Commonwealth? Oh well, I guess all of the goofy, colossally over-the-top, utterly abysmal action was way more important than the answers to any these questions.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 4:00am (USA Central)
My only problem with this episode is the device itself. Every one seems content to keep calling it a cloak, but it isn't, it's a phasing device with the added benefit of being unable to be detected. I think this is a massive distinction. By the logic that it makes you undetectable, one could argue that the slip stream network the borg uses is a cloaking device, or if the federation ever found a way to travel through sub space instead of folding regular space, and since you can not be detected while in it, you are effectively cloaked and able to go about anywhere undetected.
it comes down to what is and what isn't a cloaking device. And we are never given a satisfactory answer to that.
Then you have to consider that cloaks are not necessary to to remain undetected. I know that cloaks look like they bend light around the vessel, thus creating the illusion of invisibility, I'm going to give the cloak the benefit of the doubt that it's also redirecting other sensors, as visuals are not really important in space when looking for visual signs of another ship tens to hundreds of KM away is impractical at best. But it's not hard to imagine the federation relying on the concepts of stealth and ECM to blind and confuse an enemy vessel. I wouldn't call those cloaks. Jam sensors, painting the ship with a more stealth space camouflage, active and passive sensor interference techniques, all things that could be done before the treaty was signed.
Then you have to wonder, what about holo projectors on a ship, disguising it as something else, while scrambling with sensors to give off false readings. Would that be considered a cloak?
And why have we only ever seen one type of cloaking of stealth device, when there are far more ways to accomplish the task.
And why was the federation not allowed cloaks, but the Romulans had no problems giving cloaking technology to the Klingons, who had far more conflicts with the Romulans then the federation ever did.
And how are cloaks effective. The best way to detect any vessel is to scan for a thermal shift in the background. No matter what you do, you can not stop being hotter then space, and the is not something that is very easily countered, either, because you have to actively scramble your enemies devices that can detect thermal energy. Not to mention, looking for impressions in the gravitational field generated by the masses of these vessels.
loved the episode, but it did leave me wondering why the federation couldn't have the phase "cloak" as it's does not work on the same principle of standard cloaking devices, and has whole new applications. What if the Phase device didn't fully cloak the vessel, could it be used then?
Of course, Picard revealing the existence of a working phase cloak might also have massive ramifications in the capabilities of Romulan war ships. Might explain why my Romulan ships now have phase cloaks in Star Trek Online.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 3:10am (USA Central)
The Masterpiece Society
Putting the typically unlikely whirlwind romance aside, my problem with this episode is the alleged fragility of the society. We're continually reminded everyone is wired to perfection, yet if a couple dozen people leave, everything is supposed to collapse? It doesn't make any sense. (And hello, this is Trek. Anyone remember Khan and The Space Seed? Genetic engineering led to supermen.)
Funny story: We were just watching this and my wife said what about the Prime Directive? And I said I don't think it applies to humans, which my wife disputed. And then Riker and Picard had a very similar conversation moments later.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 1:35am (USA Central)
"You are trying to bolster your argument because of popular consensus ("everyone hates..."). Rights are not determined by majority opinion, but on judicial interpretation of principles."
No I'm really not. You're focusing on the one little part of the sentence, the "everyone hates" part and ignoring the actual point that I've been trying to make. The "everyone hates" part is an acknowledgement that most of the comments in this thread and about this episode in general around the internet that I've seen are against this particular episode. It's not an attempt to bolster the argument with peer pressure. As I just said, peer pressure is not a reason to adopt an argument.
"That's an interesting question. I don't have an answer for you, but the point is in fact that assuming the purpose of laws, etc. is ultimately the preservation of life is, well, an assumption. What do you base this assumption on?"
It is the purpose of law. At least our own law, now in the 21st century. And what little of the law we see in the Federation.
Basing morality on the preservation of life is the ultimate assumption you can make. That is, whatever you base your morality on, that is where the argument stops. Because there is nothing higher to appeal to, morality being something that we ourselves have made up for ourselves. And as we made it up for ourselves, we tend to value living as the base for morality.
"The Federation (and as Yanks pointed out, it does not yet exist in this timeline) believes in *seeking out* new life, not corrupting, destroying or tampering with it. The goal of Starfleet's exploration was to understand the Universe in which we live, not impose our sense of right and wrong upon it."
And that is a laudable goal. And yet they still, as I've said many times before, answer distress calls and cure diseases many times throughout Star Trek history. Because helping people who ask for help is not seen as tampering with life or imposing their own senes of right and wrong upon others. It is seen as the right thing to do.
I understand that the Federation doesn't exist yet in Enterprise, but we're talking about an episode that was supposed to be the forerunner to the Federation's prime directive. And yet the prime directive isn't used in the way this episode suggests.
- Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 12:09am (USA Central)
Wow - Troi literally gets mind f-cked.
The somewhat sanitized treatment of disturbing subject matter reminded me of the Quinn Martin cop shows of the '70s - with the villain a typical creep.
Worth it to see Worf's bitch slap at the end - just an open palm straight into his face. Hilarious.
- Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 11:26pm (USA Central)
This episode as a whole is a definite step up from the previous one, but not without some balancing issues. Notably the Janeway/Seven scenario. Janeway was very much correct in that the humane thing to do was to try and get the injured Undine back home. Seven was also very much correct that the lives of the crew were of paramount importance if the Hirogen were to attack.
Fortunately, the writers chose the lesser-expected route of having Seven countermand the captain in having the aliens involved beamed away mid-battle rather than opening the rift. Unfortunately, though, instead of making it a grey-area decision; the plot followed along in a black and white matter. Where Seven was 100% correct and made Janeway look 100% foolish to the viewer (even though, technically, she was just as right). Now I understand it was just a series of events, and that, decisions such as those can lead to any possibility based on any given situation in life. I just don't know if the end result was purposely intended this way by the writers or if they didn't fully think it through. At the end of the day, it really does make it look like Seven was absolutely right and Janeway was, not only absolutely wrong, but stubbornly naive. Even though she wasn't. *sigh*
This makes it all the more frustrating for me, because, in retrospect, it almost seems as a major demerit from an otherwise great episode. It does seem like the writers fucked up again. Or maybe they didn't. Maybe they really DID want Seven to win the argument and save the day. And maybe the captain WAS correct, just the circumstances didn't allow her to be.
- Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 7:01pm (USA Central)
"You might be forgiven for coming away from this episode thinking: maybe Nikolai is right, maybe this was the right decision, in this case no cultural damage was done and adherence to the Prime Directive would have needlessly sacrificed these people.
But the more you think about, the more unforeseen consequences there will be for these people over the next hundreds or thousands of years.
For example, evolution by natural selection may not be discovered because all their hominid fossils would have been left behind on the old planet. What would that do for their culture? It could be absolutely devastating in the long run. "
You're right! They should have let them be absolutely devastated in the short run instead.
We should probably have a law like that, too. Whenever something bad might happen to someone eventually, we just summarily execute them! We can spare them hurt feelings in the long run!
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