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NCC-1701-Z - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 4:06pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: Cause and Effect

I love how in each iteration, Beverly's glass breaks every single time no matter what she does.

Classic episode, especially with Picard shouting "ALL HANDS ABANDON SHIP!" over and over again. 4 popcorns.
Robert - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 3:15pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

"On another note, now that I think of it, Odo can be seen as a kind of transgender/no gender character. One who chooses his sexuality... or does he? hmm "

I choose to think Odo and Dax are nearly pansexual (and Dax is genderless). Jadzia obviously has a gender, but the Dax symbiont cannot possibly have a gender as we understand it and seems to be capable of romantic relationships outside the consideration of gender (a trait that Jadzia Dax has demonstrated to have obtained via joining most likely). There was no element of bi-sexuality in her attraction to Lenara Khan, it was much more gender blind/pansexual.

As to Odo? He only exhibits sexual attraction towards women, but I don't think he selected his gender anymore than Data did. Odo's is modeled after his "father" Dr. Moya and Data's is modeled after his "father" as well. I would assume that both of them would be capable of attraction to their same gender, since the entire great link is well, practically the same organism?

"ODO: To differentiate yourself from the others.
FOUNDER: I don't.
ODO: But you are a separate being, aren't you?
FOUNDER: In a sense.
ODO: When you return to the Link, what will happen to the entity I'm talking to right now?
FOUNDER: The drop becomes the ocean."

That basically means that, to my understanding, they should all be the same gender (or lack there of). And unless something in them programs them to like humanoid females, I'd imagine that, should the right man come along, Odo could be attracted to him. (I'm SURE there has got to be some Odo/Garak fan-fic somewhere).
Elliott - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 3:11pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

I was pleased that DS9 was willing, at least, to address the topic of fluid sexuality (Dax in "Rejoined," Odo in "Chimera, Quark, God help us all, in "Profit and Lace"). I was far less impressed by the silliness in, say "Body and Soul," or, God couldn't help us if he were real, "Bound."

SIgh, and of course the Abrams' flicks are just dripping with "not-gays" (see RedLetterMedia).
Elliott - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 3:05pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

@Robert :

2 words : Rick Berman
Elliott - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 3:04pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

If there is a hell, I'd imagine it's a lot like South Park's depiction as a never-ending luau replete with the sexually, intellectually, spiritually, interrogatively, communally, conversationally, historically, physically and socially interesting lot of humanity (aka "the sinners").

Joshua, I'm sure Jammer would agree that your comment was not censured because you have a radical opinion, but because you used a hateful slur.

@ Dave in NC--see you at the luau! (you, too, Joshua)
Robert - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 3:03pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

"Although I fundamentally disagree with Joshua, I believe its a topic worth of discussion in the context of Star Trek, especially with this episode."

The lack of gay characters in Trek is certainly worth discussing. In the context of a 20th century TV show that was ground breaking in it's exploration of other kinds of diversity. DS9 for example had exactly 1 white male on the show (characters of course, not actors). And he wasn't even an American. For a franchise that had the first interracial kiss and people from different colors and countries flying on a starship together 40 years ago, it is notable that they never really boldly went there with a gay character.

So yes, it's totally a valid discussion to speak on why there were no gay characters written into Star Trek by the writers of our time. It is NOT a valid discussion to speak on if there will be no gay people in the future. That there is troll bait.
bhbor - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 2:32pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

This is what I never get about religious people. One would think that if Dave's soul is doomed, why would you care feeling so satisfied in your correctness? Let him burn if that is the will of the universe, which in all its wonders and complexities has awarded Earth (and I suspect, in your ONE religion) as being the center for moral correctness... for some reason.

The fact that there aren't gay characters in Star Trek (although the topic is broached in a handful of episodes across all the series) says more about our societies present view of sexuality than it does about the future.

Although I fundamentally disagree with Joshua, I believe its a topic worth of discussion in the context of Star Trek, especially with this episode.

On another note, now that I think of it, Odo can be seen as a kind of transgender/no gender character. One who chooses his sexuality... or does he? hmm
Time_Travelling_Robert_From_Yesterday - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 2:17pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

::Points to "Don't Feed The Trollz" sign::

::Slaps his present self in the head::

::Slingshots back around the sun::
Robert - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 2:13pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

"Dave in NC isn't the only one who should be worried for his soul"

Agreed.
Joshua - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 1:59pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

Vulcans don't even have emotions, so I don't see how that applies here. Diversity is not a virtue.

Dave in NC isn't the only one who should be worried for his soul, i hope you know that promoting sin is almost as bad as doing the act.
bhbor - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 1:43pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S3: Who Watches the Watchers

I was really surprised by the low rating on this episode since it is easily my favorite in TNG.

People have made fine points back and forth about the consistency of atheism within the Federation here, and I don't really have the time to dig into that at the moment except to say that Sisko's role as Emissary in DS9 never, in my opinion, converted him from an atheist Star-Fleet commander into a believer. It seems that he maintains that the Prophets are some kind of 4th dimensional worm-hole aliens, incredibly intelligent but ignorant in their own way about corporeal life and certainly never regards them as gods. It is very interesting to ponder how such incredibly powerful entities could be so flawed in regard to their understanding of our universe. In this stage, Sisko's role is to define and defend "humanity" ie-corporeal beings by engaging in debate rhetoric was one of the most fascinating aspects of this show.

In regard to "Who Watches the Watchers", I found Patrick Stewart's interaction with the proto-Vulcan leader absolutely spellbinding. The musical score was perfect when Picard asked her to 'touch his face...flesh and blood', it gives me goosebumps every time I watch it. Picard's eventual answer to the question, "I wonder if we will ever travel the stars?" ... "of that I have no doubt" carries with it such a profound spirituality in itself, which I feel most true scientists today hold dear. Science is bad mouthed as a kind of religion in itself, but true explorers willingly except their own ignorance about the complexities of the universe through the profoundly limited lens of human perception, and carry on a question for knowledge despite the enormity of life's complexities.

Within this, religion was, and always has been a poor explanation for the wonders of life.
Robert - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 1:36pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

IDIC
Joshua - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 1:20pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

I'm sorry to see the gay agenda is alive and well on here. I expected most of you to have drunk the kool aid, but i was surprised Jammer would censor my comments when he talks about freedom of speech so much.

There are no gay people in Star Trek because no one chooses perversiont in the future. End of story.
Robert - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 12:53pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S7: The Dogs of War

I think that in earlier seasons of DS9 they had those kinds of TNGish round table discussions (like the discussion in Playing God about destroying the proto universe), but in later seasons (especially in the middle of the war) they just had less time for those kinds of scenes and so they did away with a lot of them. A lot of S2/S3 episodes had pieces like that when it was needed (Blood Oath, The Maquis, The Abandoned, and Life Support to name a few... even some later episodes like Children of Time had them).

I don't usually feel like it was detrimental to the episode to not have it either, but sometimes it was. The real issues were things that took place in the war like Odo/Sisko not resigning on the spot when the Federation ordered him to not stop the genocide of the founders, or nobody blinking when he poisoned a planet or everyone going back to being buddies with Odo the day after he betrayed them. The show often tried to tackle some themes that were greyer than they were willing to handle. But I think it was rare.
Robert - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 12:37pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S7: The Dogs of War

@Elliott - On my own pondering of greyness...

First to your point about giving voice to opposing points of view.

1) Tuvix - This was as grey an episode/theme set as it got, and Captain Janeway's final action should have been very controversial... but literally everyone agreed with her (except maybe the doctor, but he barely even morally objected, he just couldn't do the procedure without consent).

2) For The Uniform - Sisko poetically poisons a planet in such a way that humans cannot live there but Cardassians can, some might say poetic justice (including me) since they can switch with the Cardassians who the Maquis poisoned earlier, but the closest we got to an objection is Worf hesitating to push the torpedoes for a second. And he didn't clear it with Starfleet.

These are grey episodes and themes, but on TNG Dr. Crusher would have been forcefully making her case, and possibly a few others. That said, I don't know that it makes DS9 intellectually stilted and sophomoric or that it failed to host grey content. I feel like what was grey about DS9 (in a refreshing way) was that we were not always supposed to agree with our heroes. Take "Hippocratic Oath". I THINK the episode intended for us to agree with Bashir, but I'm not sure. And even if it did, that sort of makes O'Brien the villain of the piece.

The successfully grey pieces were the characters. Some had their dark sides added better than others (Sisko/Kira's dark sides were explored MUCH better than Odo's in my opinion) but they all felt more like real people in some ways than the TNG crew. They had rough edges. Where it did fail is that when dealing with questionable content you often want somebody objecting (it can be horrifying as in Tuvix when something like that is going down and nobody objects). But I don't know that it happened on DS9 as often as you think it did. That was handled better in TNG though.

VOY I usually felt like the characters were too broken by their dictator to disagree with her....
AEMom - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 12:32pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S6: Chain of Command, Part I

Jellico talks about liking a certain degree of formaility but I was quick to notice that in every single interaction with the crew, he always calls them by their first names. To me, this was very disrepectful and went a long way to increasing the crew's dislike of him.
But full credit to him for getting Troi back in standard uniform. Too bad they didn't follow suit with Seven in Voyager and put her in a standard science uniform.
Elliott - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 10:58am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S7: The Dogs of War

@M.P.

"In the comment section about a show which successfully hosted grey content; most of you are simplifying extremely complex issues into black and white."

I'd take exception to the "successfully hosted grey content" portion, but I agree with your conclusion here.

" I see many repeat names (Elliot[t] being the most prolific, I believe) commenting on every episode the same diatribe. 'DS9 sucks because the Federation isn't being portrayed as a Roddenberry utopia.'"

No mention of the "insanely ironic" here? That you have reduced criticism of this show (or at least mine) to a repetitive (yet somehow also prolific) "diatribe" about Roddeberrian Utopia.

This episode's comment thread alone has 8 postings from me (not including this one) spanning almost four years' time--does it really take that much writing to say I'm a DS9-hater? Please. If you don't want to read my comments, that's entirely your prerogative, but please don't snidely dismiss what you've obviously chosen not to bother to understand.

That DS9 didn't "fit with" or chose to undermine the TOS/TNG Federation vision is not a subject with which I take issue, it's the *how.* And the *how* differs (usually) from episode to episode, thus meriting a specific response. Because you've already chosen to corral any criticism of the DS9 ethos into a "well, it's not what Roddenberry would have wanted" camp, you see any comments to that effect as being repetitive, when they are not. I would speculate that this belief is bolstered by your claim that DS9 "successfully hosted grey content," which I find at least partly erroneous. DS9 certainly liked to host grey content, but it very often failed to actually give voice to points of view which contribute to those real-world dilemmas such situations allegorised, making its philosophical content often woefully one-sided and intellectually stilted in some New Age, college sophomore-level mediocrity.
Yanks - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 8:04am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S7: The Siege of AR-558

How did we get on economies again? :-) Especially reviewing this episode?
Yanks - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 7:39am (USA Central)
Re: ENT S4: Observer Effect

Sean,

Could you please explain?

Thanks.
Polly - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 7:25am (USA Central)
Re: TNG S7: Journey's End

This episode illustrates what seems to be a common mainstream American misconception, which is that entire foreign cultures exist purely to help some middle class white American male to to get his act together.
Flying Tiger Comics - Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 3:13am (USA Central)
Re: VOY S6: Spirit Folk

I'm rewatching Voyager and recently passed this episode.

I didn't hate it, but the massive number of wasted episodes is heart breaking.

Voyager should have bitten the bullet and said no holodeck eps.

It would have made it better. Imagine if they used the Equinox crew thingy- and people got addicted to it like an electronic narcotic?

The show starts pretty strong and it has a restrained gothic horror edge with its multiple Frankenstein tropes- Borg, Vidiians and such- but man did it blow it all on the jog to Endgame.
M.P. - Tue, Sep 16, 2014, 11:10pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S7: The Dogs of War

Oh good Lord. It is insanely ironic. In the comment section about a show which successfully hosted grey content; most of you are simplifying extremely complex issues into black and white.

This is the simplest way to say it. Neither socialism nor capitalism is "right." Both have good and bad points. Both are highly grey. Right is relative.

Anyway, about the actual show. It is fine if you do not like DS9 based soley on it not fitting in with an idealized-Roddenberry vision. Saying that is also fine, to a point. But I see many repeat names (Elliot being the most prolific, I believe) commenting on every episode the same diatribe. "DS9 sucks because the Federation isn't being portrayed as a Roddenberry utopia."

We get it. We get why you don't like it. Hammering that into every episode's comment section is ultimately self-defeating. You just come across as a whiny DS9-hater chest-thumping for the sake of being heard.

Most of you are better than that; your intelligence shows it. So at least step up your game and give us something else if you must keep commenting about the same subject.
bhbor - Tue, Sep 16, 2014, 8:56pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

If Star Trek teaches us anything its to embrace diversity - that, and simple metaphors are a great way to explain away complex technobabble.
bhbor - Tue, Sep 16, 2014, 8:29pm (USA Central)
Re: ENT S4: Observer Effect

I don't feel like going back and forth on the details of this one, I was just impressed by Scott Bacula's acting in the final debate with the reanimated corpses of Trip and Hoshi. His quiet sadness rang true.
Dave in NC - Tue, Sep 16, 2014, 7:21pm (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

@ Joshua

I'm a gay dude, and trust me when I tell you it's not a choice. If it were, I'd be straight. lol

Although . . . I have to agree with Elliot, I suspect that you already know that better than anyone.

@ Robert & Elliot & Sonya & Andy's Friend & everyone else besides Joshua:

Thanks for being open-minded and inclusive. Trek fans really are the best people!
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