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M.P. - Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 1:33pm (USA Central)
Re: VOY S3: Before and After

About the Ocampan lifespan:

It is -not- plausible the way it is now. I cannot remember the exact math but a quick Google search would find it. Essentially, with a 9-year lifespan and only one reproductive cycle, the starting number of Ocampans would have to have been greater than the total number of atoms in the entire universe.

The way around this is to make fact the insinuated idea that the Ocampans are a dying species. Most likely, before the disaster, they lived much longer lives with many reproductive cycles. Time has seen each generation deteriorate to the point where their species is now at an end.

Sad, really. The Caretaker wasn't trying to protect them; he was trying to make comfortable their final years of existence as a species.
Robert - Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 1:27pm (USA Central)
Re: VOY S4: Random Thoughts

So I guess the reality is, no I don't think "I Love Lucy" is great.... for 1950. I think it's just great.

But it sure does make it easier to overlook certain flaws.
Yanks - Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 1:26pm (USA Central)
Re: TOS S1: Space Seed

I nver bought the "Chekov" complaint... Khan had access to the ship's database...
Robert - Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 1:26pm (USA Central)
Re: VOY S4: Random Thoughts

I'm saying that if Final Fantasy 15 looked like Final Fantasy 7 I wouldn't play it h t t p://www.kotaku.com.au/2014/10/final-fantasy-xv-as-a-playstation-1-game/

That doesn't mean the original isn't one of my favorite games or that I won't break it out again the next time I miss it. It just means that the blockheads don't bother me because at the time you couldn't do better.

Just like I'd not give my time, energy or money to a television show capable of producing the sexist DRECK that is "The Turnabout Intruder", but since it's a product of it's time and made some really brilliant sci-fi I'm willing to look past the flaws.

I like Voyager (and have actually been saying a lot of nice things about it recently as I look over my comment history) but it just can't sit up there with TNG because TNG was a product of it's time and Voyager could have been better. The specific comment I was replying to was

"Once you accept Voyager is NOT DS9 and was never meant to be, and you compare it to TNG and TOS, it fares quite well. TNG had it fair share of doozies, and TOS well don't get me started on TOS. "

Saying it fares well in a DIRECT comparison to TNG or TOS is just not really a fair fight (it's like comparing the graphics of FF7 to FF15). Want to know what TOS is like with continuity? See ST2, ST3 and ST4. On going themes, story lines and continuity. The result? REALLY FREAKING AWESOME. Why were they brave enough to try that? Because Star Wars was doing it.

Voyager could have done these things AND played it safe. They didn't have to trail blaze. They could have just followed DS9. You don't have to agree with my assessment of Voyagers flaws. You don't have to agree that I won't cut Voyager slack against TNG and TOS. But I can't see it any other way.

Let me put it to you this way. Do you roll your eyes when Lucy and Ricky sleep in separate beds? Would you eye roll if Ross and Rachel did? I sure would......
Elliott - Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 12:11pm (USA Central)
Re: VOY S4: Random Thoughts

Are you saying you have a filter in your brain which silences criticisms over continuity, etc. based on when the show was produced? Are you saying that TV shows of our time are automatically better (or held to a higher standard) than shows of the past because our format has changed? I find this rather difficult to accept. I don't watch "2001" and think, "Boy this is great...for 1968," I just love the film for everything it is. True, I can analyse features of the film and account for how "of," "ahead of," or "behind" the times it was, but that doesn't affect my enjoyment of the film. The same is true for me of Star Trek. I don't hold a higher suspension of disbelief with TOS than I do for ENT; I've said before that I think Trek is best absorbed as mythology, anyway, but that's another discussion.
Robert - Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 10:50am (USA Central)
Re: TOS S1: Space Seed

Unless it ever outright states that Chekov joins the Enterprise after this he could have encountered Khan off screen.

And you are thinking of a double feature. They don't do that much anymore.
Robert - Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 9:16am (USA Central)
Re: VOY S4: Random Thoughts

For a lot of it's run Voyager did not much concern itself with how it would be viewed if you were marathoning it on Netflix, and it doesn't really hold up. Things like Kes breaking up with Neelix while possessed, Janeway not following through with her threats to the Vidiians, the Doctor's memory wipe barely being addressed again, Kim forgetting about Libby nearly entirely without it ever being mentioned again, and a whole slew of other things shows a casual disregard for continuity that keeps it from being great under a lens of how TV is viewed today.

And while you can forgive TNG some of those things I think it's harder to forgive Voyager. They DID try this a few times, and I thought it mostly worked (the Doctor's story holds up well over a Netflix marathon, the continuing growth of the Borg kids, Naomi growing up, Torres&Paris' relationship). I give credit where credit was due, but I swear a lot of times it seemed like the guy writing the episode of the week was barely familiar with the canon.
Robert - Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 9:11am (USA Central)
Re: VOY S4: Random Thoughts

It'd be like TOS doing "Angel One" or "Code of Honour". I'd be MUCH less judgey about a show in the 60s doing that. TNG should have grown up enough to have never tried that nonsense.
Robert - Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 9:10am (USA Central)
Re: VOY S4: Random Thoughts

While you are right about art.... being old fashioned on purpose can be charming. Being old fashioned because you refuse to adapt is... sad?

TV shows were crippled in the past by the requirement from networks that the episodes be able to be shown out of order. I'm not aware of any TV writer that laments the fact that now you can have characters develop (even if that wasn't the focus) because the shows are more likely to live on in DVD than to be watching in 30 years of TV reruns.

Refusing to grow up with the times is not always a sign of being old fashioned, sometimes it's just a sign of being dense. Like I said, I don't judge Voyager for not being a serial (I actually liked House M.D. to use an example LESS when it got more serialized, I preferred the patient of the week stories... but either way the characters were still developing), I just judge it because the network pressure to make it something lesser than it could have been is sad.

Whereas TNG was literally as good as it could have been at the time.
zzybaloobah - Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 12:56am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S7: Strange Bedfellows

And don't forget:
"I'm sure the Founder will understand. If not, I look forward to meeting Weyoun-9."
Realistically, when did Damar get so witty? but I'm loving it.
todayshorse - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 10:14pm (USA Central)
Re: TOS S1: Space Seed

Strangely, i had never seen this episode of TOS before although I have seen TWOK many times including years ago with my father at the cinema with I'm sure TMP first. Did they really do things like that? Show one movie then another? Or is my mind playing tricks? Anyway I'd heard about the episode and read about it here.

Bizarrely it turns up on some tv channel here in the UK yesterday, pretty strange!. Fascinating to watch.

One bit that I had to pause and watch again is when the gas gets released and Scotty sort of runs out the room but quickly turns round and floors one of Khans 'men' before running out. Rather bizarre but I thought pretty funny. I guess it was the same bloke that dropped Scotty earlier. Interesting that there's no Chekov in the Episode which kinda messes up TWOK a little though I guess that's already been mentioned.

Fabulous stuff that's got me watching quite a bit of TOS (loved the epsiode when they go back to the 1960's with the air force pilot!) even though 'my trek ' has and will always be TNG.
Elliott - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 5:28pm (USA Central)
Re: VOY S4: Random Thoughts

@Robert :

"But Voyager, like every other show, needs to be judged as a product of it's time."

I have to fundamentally disagree here. While some aspects of TV production may naturally evolve (read: improve) over time, such as special effects in an objective manner, there is no standard which says that story-telling formats are automatically better the more tightly they follow (or lead in DS9's case) trends. It can be of historical interest to note how show well shows capture the spirit or styles of their time, but it is not a measure of quality. Otherwise, the soap opera would an evolutionary highpoint of storytelling with its uninterrupted continuous narrative.

Several artists have been considered out of step and old-fashioned in their day (Vermeer, Bach, Pushkin), while others were cutting-edge (Hemingway, Wagner, Monet, Shakespeare). This does not diminish the greatness of any artist or work of art, it is simply a stylistic choice. The Voyager authors apparently felt it was easier to stick to the Trek ethos by embracing the Trek format of yesteryear (be it 1960s or 80s). This retro-style had little to no impact on the quality of the writing. Judge that as you wish, but I for one reject the notion that "timeliness" accounts for calibre.
Robert - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 2:49pm (USA Central)
Re: VOY S4: Random Thoughts

Voyager is being judged by it's time. Pretty much all shows by this point, including sitcoms, had some amount of character development, continuity and do not fully reset at the end of each episode. DS9 had "serial" elements. I don't judge Voyager for not having them. I judge Voyager for needing to end the episode in the same "state" it began it. If it wanted to be judged by the same standards as "Lost in Space" and "TOS" it needed to be made 30 years earlier. And if it wanted to be judged as "TNG" it needed to be made 10 years earlier.

That's not to say some of Voyager doesn't do really well. I recently touted the Doctor's personal arc as excellent and relatively reset button free. And this episode was a great showing for Tuvok, Vulcans in general and Voyager.

But Voyager, like every other show, needs to be judged as a product of it's time.
$G - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 1:32pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S7: Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges

Excellent hour. It slides in a notch under "In the Pale Moonlight" but only because that episode's frame narrative was so compelling. I agree with everything Jammer says (except that the plot may be too complex for its own good). I never even considered that Sisko would have been aware of the plot, but given what we already know, it's not an unsupported conclusion.

Things that are awesome:

-Every beat of the episode works and builds into a legitimately high stakes mystery. (I especially enjoyed the call-back to "The Quickening". It's not a big deal, but continuity always makes a series that much more realistic.)

-The episode is necessary in that it shows DS9 is a show that recognizes the precariousness of political alliances. It's been going on the entire series, and it takes care not to suggest everything will be resolved just because the good guys (inevitably) are victorious. This episode suggests its own future without being able to explore it, and I think that's a pretty effective device. The Wire's (excellent) finale is an example of this, too.

-I love the sobering portrayal of the Federation trying to hold itself together in a region of political upheaval, which is a legitimate question to pose when one is working with a future utopia. "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" effectively utilized the "rogue admiral" cliche, but it's done even more effectively because, A), we already know Ross to be a reasonable man, and, B), his rationale is completely understandable given the last two seasons of war and especially episodes like "AR-558". It was a smart move to only have Ross collude with Sloan rather than be a part of Section 31 completely.

-Even though I've seen this show in its entirety, I forgot that Admiral Ross gets this much development in S7. I've made comments on other S7 episodes that this season is the year of the secondary characters. I forgot how true that continues to be. As much as I miss the routine of our main cast doing their jobs every week, it just goes to show how big and unpredictable DS9 has become. The canvas just keeps widening.

This episode has one flaw, I think, though it's pretty minor and really pretty subjective: the new actress playing Cretak. She's actually really quite good, but the new face kind of weakens the punch that this is the same (reasonable and likable) woman we know from "Shadows and Symbols". She works perfectly within the story but, y'know, that visual continuity just isn't there.

Other than that, this is not only an easy 4-star episode but it's a top 10 episode of the series. Essential. Do not skip.
$G - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 12:58pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S7: Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang

I found Sisko's objection interesting and I think it would have made a pretty good episode all on its own. (That is, period-piece entertainment and whether or not the entertainment can be divorced from problematic inspirations). The episode doesn't go anywhere with it, really. But I also think not having Sisko say anything would have been out of character. Not only is Sisko a history buff, but he personally visited a rough period in the 21st century ("Past Tense") AND experienced first-hand the pre-civil rights prejudice through Benny Russell.

Anyway, I still think this is a fun episode. A lot of people tend not to like this one, but I don't know why. Its closest sibling episode is "Our Man Bashir", which everyone drools over, even though "Badda-Bing" is way, WAY better. The plot doesn't needlessly threaten anyone (except Vic) and plays out creatively, showing off the plan beforehand so that each setback has stakes and purpose when it DOES play out. "Our Man Bashir" basically just used each character for the sake of seeing the actors in cliched roles, which got old for me.

You know what might have made this episode a bit cooler? If the mob takeover of Vic's was foreshadowed beforehand instead of just popping up in the programming. Since Nog made it so Vic can live a "real", uninterrupted existence it would have been neat to see Vic deal with inevitable problems raised by that. Of course, that would be giving way too much screentime to Vic, really for the only purpose of paying off a holosuite heist episode. Ah well.

3 stars for me. This is a legitimately enjoyable episode. Weird that S7 has more holosuite episodes than the rest of the series combined (I think). Weirder is that I think they're all successful!
Kid Marine - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 11:15am (USA Central)
Re: TNG S3: Yesterday's Enterprise

Surely "Twilight" would be Enterprise's equivalent, not E2.
Robert - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 10:28am (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: Darmok

@Matrix - h t t p://www.lbgale.com/2012/07/29/the-tamarian-takeover-memes-and-language/#.VFEHRldsL4c

Wish granted. Now as payment, go watch the episode.
Satya - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 9:14am (USA Central)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

I was particularly struck by the lack of urgency everyone (from the Colony... from the Enterprise... literally everyone) felt while faced with the planet's complete doom and destruction. 2 stars is about right.
NoPoet - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 7:53am (USA Central)
Re: ENT S1: Broken Bow

Farpoint: pompous, arrogant, cliched, old-fashioned, badly acted, horribly written, cheese beyond belief, naff "sci-fi wonder" ending, too much posturing, doesn't even start with the launch of the Enterprise.

Emissary: boring in places, cliched and embarrassing when Sisko meets the Prophets, an excellent idea for a new show, good acting, terrific villains, New, vibrant, interesting in places, but poorly paced.

Caretaker: fun, exciting, excellent characterisation, interesting premise.

Broken Bow: different, funny, exciting, contemporary albeit weak in places, a few genuine prequel moments, excellent sets and effects, the NX-01 has limitations and vulnerabilities that make it awesome.

Of them all, DS9 easily went on to be the best show, TNG the most comfortable and reassuring, Voyager so-so but generally good, ENT the most disappointing with a total loss of direction which was regained way too late.

Conclusion: the days of Bermaga should have ended with TNG/Voyager. Berman's lack of input into DS9 is telling - it easily outstrips the other Treks.

NoPoet - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 7:41am (USA Central)
Re: ENT S1: Shadows of P'Jem

Additionally: I agree the Vulcans are almost insanely horrible in this series, but when have they ever come across as anything other than thorny, arrogant and aloof? Spock had plenty of good moments, but he was also on a ship populated entirely by humans who constantly sought to get a rise out of him and needed him to reveal his inner humanity. I guess that's all right though because LET'S ALL BASH ARCHER.

The reveal that the Vulcan people are actually being misguided by Romulan agents should have come in the first or second season, not halfway through the fourth.

NoPoet - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 7:32am (USA Central)
Re: ENT S1: Sleeping Dogs

All right, I finally made myself watch this episode again, along with a few others from season one.

I was struck by how well-acted the show is. The Klingon actors made the best of their very poor, obstinate lines, but Reed, Hoshi and T'Pol were excellent. Hoshi is coming along nicely - a shame her character will be all but abandoned in later seasons - and Reed was excellent, his desperation showing as he argued with Hoshi about detonating the torpedoes.

The episode is still a missed opportunity on many levels. We do not see a decent reason for human-Klingon wars (which we are supposed to have started, by the way), the Klingons are written as tards and the closing scenes where the klingons actually threaten to fire on Enterprise were ridiculous, although Archer's response was spot on.

I cannot hate Archer just because the writers occasionally make him do something stupid. After all, what exactly is he supposed to do with pirates and hostile raiders? Stick them in his brig? Destroy their ships and murder their crew? Turn them over to other authorities - what authorities? This is a really thorny subject which the writers simply ignore.
Jonathan - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 4:24am (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S6: Far Beyond the Stars

One very interesting thing is that the censorship shown in this episode - forced or highly suggested - was instrumental in the creation of the Star Trek franchise. Many stories in Star Trek - especially on the Original Series - came into being because the only acceptable way they could be told or explored was in the guise of a science fiction show. Censorship still exists, but it is just a faint shadow of what is was in the '50s and '60s. Besides, we have the Internet today - where if you live in the western world, there is absolutely no censorship.
SlackerInc - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 2:07am (USA Central)
Re: TOS S1: The Enemy Within

Huh, I was underwhelmed by this episode. (My kids and I are going through and watching, in order, all the episodes Jammer has given three or more stars to; many of them I saw years ago in syndication but I don't recall seeing this one.)

Some of it may be just that certain elements are off because they are still working out the kinks: no acknowledgment that there are shuttles; strange, convoluted terminology to talk about the simple act of setting phasers to stun; the fact that Nimoy seems to be taking longer to settle into his character's groove than the other two of the main trio.

But that sort of points to part of the problem: we are only in the fifth episode, yet this is our second consecutive episode involving people being made to act differently from normal and run amok. And in fact, it is the fourth of the first five episodes in which at least one of the main actors deviates from the typical way they would play their character: either because someone or something was causing them to act nutty, or because they were playing an imposter. Shouldn't they have spent longer establishing their characters' normal behavior patterns first?

It was cool to hear that first "he's dead, Jim" though.
Charles - Wed, Oct 29, 2014, 12:25am (USA Central)
Re: VOY S4: Random Thoughts

I love the double standards used for Voyager and TOS... TOS is the perfect, amazing series, and each of its episodes is thought-provoking, and a classic, while Voyager is supposedly aimless and limited.

I'm sorry but that's complete bullshit. Once you accept Voyager is NOT DS9 and was never meant to be, and you compare it to TNG and TOS, it fares quite well. TNG had it fair share of doozies, and TOS well don't get me started on TOS.
knight4444 - Tue, Oct 28, 2014, 11:31pm (USA Central)
Re: DS9 S2: Second Sight

Wow, some of you people are really pathetic, I thought is was a great episode, it's NOT a full length MOVIE! it's a 47 min TV series, I'm assuming most of you television critics are just pimple popping TEENAGERS!
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